Hamas official says group would lay down its arms if an independent Palestinian state is established ( apnews.com )

A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.

bartolomeo ,

Update: it was rejected.

Again.

Veraxus ,

I don't think they would, but I certainly support testing this claim.

paddirn ,

I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they're not sharing it with anybody, or if they do, it'll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US. They just want the Palestinians to eventually fade away. Violent groups like Hamas just help them more than anything because it gets Israelis riled up and gives their military an excuse to go in and carve out even more territory, so I'm sure they don't even care about this, they're like, "Why would we want you to lay down your arms?"

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody

Left unchecked, this is only going to be the beginning.

Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over "Greater Israel" map

Jordan accused far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich of violating the peace agreement between the two countries after he gave a speech in Paris at a podium featuring a map that included Jordan and the occupied West Bank as part of Israel and said the Palestinian people were "an invention."

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/82acad55-3185-46a1-83c5-dc42db9d6f0f.webp

https://currentaffairs.adda247.com/greater-israel-map/

The term “Greater Israel“ has been a contentious and debated concept related to the State of Israel and its territorial boundaries. This article explores the controversial idea of a “Greater Israel” and the various interpretations surrounding it. The concept of a “Greater Israel”, according to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, is a Jewish State stretching “from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

And they pretend to be outraged when they hear "from the river to the sea."

That map is disgusting.

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US.

The genocide of Native Americans happened when the world was less civilized, people as a whole were less aware and more disconnected. Allowing genocide in any era is unacceptable, it shouldn’t happen now.

bartolomeo ,

The charter of Likud says

Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

so let's see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.

nutsack ,

dude LET'S GO

books ,

Pre 1967 borders.

Youd have better odds of me shitting out a herd of albino rabid kittens than Israel ever agreeing to those terms.

nutsack ,

sounds good

ZMoney ,

Gotta love the wording in this article "Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel..."

It's because the "state" of Israel is inseparable from a military blockade that imposes a starvation regime and illegally settles lands in the West Bank in direct defiance of the UN. It's like saying I'm committed to the destruction of the US because I'm committed to ending criminal wars of aggression, unconstitutional mass surveillance, and a prison system with 2 million residents.

capital ,

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

Made up tripe should be treated as such, and people who believe in any kind of religious doctrine are delusion and deranged. We shouldn’t trust religious people with positions of authority or power, look at where this has gotten humanity.

capital ,

Fully agree.

And to be crystal clear - that applies across all religions. It’s all bullshit and none of it should influence people in positions of power in any government.

recapitated ,

Can indepent mean independent from Hamas (which was basically crafted by Israel)?

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

According to the definitions of the words yes it can

bradorsomething ,

“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”

sazey ,

Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.

yogurt ,

They've been saying that for decades but nobody else is interested.

AstridWipenaugh ,

Returning to the 1967 borders is a nonstarter. Israel has stolen a LOT of land since then so it would mean evicting entire Israeli settlements. Not that I disagree with doing that, but Israel would never agree to it. It would be like the US giving good land back to the native Americans; it's simply never going to happen.

WamGams ,

I would personally reject this deal.

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.

NoLifeGaming ,

You mean to fight the occupation?

WamGams ,

...can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?

unreasonabro ,

"tunnels to commit terrorism from" is hardly objective. Terrorism is what oppressors call fighting for one's freedom, and Israel is invading territory which is not theirs, ergo, your comment appears to be cheering from the wrong side of history. The way your comment stands, it seems to end on a different sentiment than it starts off with.

WamGams ,

Before I engage with a blatantly Pro-Hamas statement, please first explain how Hamas is fighting for the freedom for Palestinians, including women and LGBTQ citizens.

If unable, and you refuse to revise your Pro-Hamas stance, you will immediately be blocked.

n3m37h ,

An anti Israeli (Zionist) stance isn't equal to pro Hamas.

"Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation."

The guy was literally stating what happens during an occupation.

The victors write history

WamGams ,

Unless you are responding under a different account, I am going to give the original commentator a chance to respond and revise his statement.

Claiming that the modern political apparatus of Palestine are mere freedom fighters is a lie, and I will not engage with it.

n3m37h ,

No, not same person.

So in other words you're a Zionist?

GREAT! /s

Every action has a equal and opposite action.
Eg you attack civvies you create 'terrorists' aka Hama's

Israel created a problem that allows them to syphon money from other countries for committing genocide

WamGams ,

I believe both Jews and Palestinians deserve to live in their homeland. If that belief causes a few bad actors supporting Hamas to call me a Zionist as a slur, so be it.

mycathas9lives ,

@WamGams @n3m37h

I bet you a nickle the DNA of Palestinians matches that of the Jews. They are the same people, except for something something.

WamGams ,

If you mean that they are human as much as the Jews are, than yes.

But the idea that Palestinians are secret Jews by genetics is something that the Palestinian people would likely reject.

n3m37h ,

Religion is fucking man made anyways

WamGams ,

I agree, but now let's get the Israelis and Palestinians to agree.

n3m37h ,

100%

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I believe both Jews and Palestinians deserve to live in their homeland

Yet your only concern has been for Isreal, the ones doing a genocide.

Excuse us if we don't believe you at all

WamGams ,

You don't know a thing about me or my beliefs and you have zero percent interest in knowing them. Pretending to have that knowledge is your goal here.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Pretty angry and defensive take when all I did was point out the behaviour you've had in this thread

WamGams ,

The fact that you are accusing me unprovoked of being angry at you leads me to believe your intent in this dialog is to try and make me angry.

Perhaps in your mind anger is the correct response when somebody lies and misconstrues, but you are ignoring the fact that I expect that kind of behavior out of Pro-Hamas accounts.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Nah, homie, people going "you don't know me or my beliefs" are clearly upset at being called out on their behaviour online, thats why I said you're angry.

Still claiming people you don't agree with are pro-hamas? Pathetic.

WamGams ,

Telling you your presumptions about me are wrong makes me angry?

I don't know, man, I think you are mistaken, but you can't be told nothing, so I guess just keep pretending your life away?

And I believe our dialog started because you took my anti-Hamas stance to mean I was pro-genocide. So I'm just mirroring your own behavior, which yes, I do agree has been pathetic.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Telling you your presumptions about me are wrong makes me angry?

No, but that's not what you did.

I don't know, man, I think you are mistaken

Interesting, as the only claim I made was that you've made exclusively pro-israeli comments in this thread. There's objective proof of that, so like, no?

but you can't be told nothing

*Anything. And I can be told whatever you want to say. Will I respect and accept it? Probably not.

And I believe our dialog started because you took my anti-Hamas stance to mean I was pro-genocide

No, it's when I pointed out that you'd only made pro-israeli comments while being as unfair as possible to the Palestinians.

Learn to read usernames or you'll look even dumber, dude

WamGams ,

What specific comment of mine was "pro-Israel"?

I will wait.

tocopherol ,

What does it matter if they have other political motives? The world is enabling their utter annihilation, children, babies, innocent people with no political ambition. That must be stopped before we wring our hands about what they might do with freedom. They are human beings, people with lives and families, not wild rabid animals.

WamGams ,

The world isn't enabling a Palestinian annihilation. The world is working to resolve the conflict.

You guys need to stop pretending that you are the only good people and everybody else is evil. That's part of the issue here.

tocopherol ,

True, I shouldn't say the world, just major Western powers like the US and it's allies.

WamGams ,

I am Canadian-American and haven't met a single person who likes genocide.

Maybe you hang out with different kinds of people in different parts of the world.

tocopherol ,

I guess you haven't met the defense contrators, weapons manufacturers and politicians who are rich because of wars and genocide. I haven't personally met many of them either, average people don't associate with those types.

WamGams ,

If genocides were good for profits, every nation beholden to capitol would be engaging in them.

That's the issue with genocides for capitalists, by definition they have an end goal and thus a theoretical point in which the profits cease.

A genocide is probably better understood as an outflow of desperation on the behalf of corporatists.

tocopherol ,

True, I don't think pragmatic people in the arms industry would push for genocide, a more drawn out, even conflict would be better for their profits probably. But if there is one they can make money on they will, even if one side is eradicated and the fighting stops there are always other conflicts.

In the example of Israel, if they succeed in eradicating their current target (Palestine) there will be more enemies for them to fight, so they would still be a valuable client of Lockheed Martin et al.

WamGams ,

I'm not yet convinced eradication is the final goal, though the aspect of desperation shown by Netanyahu certainly causes me to fear it could go that way.

tocopherol ,

You can look through the history of statements by the average Israeli politicians, military officials and pundits to get a sense of their goal, it can be deduced by their actions but they been more or less open about it for years. The political history of and statements by the Israeli minister of national security Itamar Ben-Gvir is a good example of the general zeitgeist of the political bloc in power in Israel.

JustZ ,

Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!

They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.

DdCno1 ,

Hamas went all in hoping that once all of the other Muslim nations saw their merry slaughter of Jews, they would happily and immediately join in and attack Israel from all sides to complete the attempted genocide. They forgot about or chose to ignore a few things:

Israel has nukes and would use them if they felt fundamentally threatened, Israel has conventionally defeated every army that has ever attacked them (if sometimes by the skin of their teeth), has made reluctant, but reliable allies out of some of their former enemies and crippled others. Hamas didn't consider that Biden would protect Israel and fully commit to it, they kept the preparations for their attack so secret that only Tehran and Moscow knew about them, but crucially not Hezbollah (which ended up being muzzled by the American carrier groups anyway) and they gave nobody the necessary heads up for the months of buildup required for a full on war, because that would have given the whole thing away. While Hamas skillfully (with Russian and Iranian help) overcame the border defenses, they wasted the element of surprise on random carnage instead of overrunning the same airfields that have since been launching thousands of sorties that are, day by day, obliterating their organization.

And so on and so forth. The entire idea was foolish from the start and had no chance of success. Not that Moscow and Tehran expected any. They just used Hamas as pawns, hoping to weaken the US with this conflict. It's the standard zero sum game that autocrats love to play so much.

ArmokGoB ,

This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it's clear the rest of the world's governments don't care.

JustZ ,

Yeah, it's clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!

ArmokGoB ,

Yeah, and we're 7.5 months into the war. Over all of WWII, the Nazis couldn't kill all of the Jews (and everyone else they were trying to kill) in Europe. Give it time. If they're allowed to keep this up, there will be a more complete ethnic cleansing.

NoLifeGaming ,

The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don't agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.

The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.

So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.

JustZ , (edited )

Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That's how criminal culpability works.

The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It's sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership

What a disgusting lack of knowledge of the areas history, wow

theluckyone ,

By your logic, Israel's government is just as culpable: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

TheFriar ,

I agree…but one thing at a time. When Palestine is free, then they can get rid of Hamas. But right now, they’re on the same team against Israel…against literal genocide. A violently oppressive fundamentalist government is obviously something to shed when you have a state to expel them from. But they’re living under the worst case scenario right now. Hamas is their only defense at the moment against genocidal colonialist state. Fighting a battle on two fronts is a recipe for complete destruction.

Passerby6497 ,

I would personally reject this deal.

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas.

Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that's the much better choice.

WamGams ,

Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?

DarkNightoftheSoul ,
@DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

You said the thing they're responding to. What are they gonna do, shout their reply down a well? Also, it's not bad faith just because you disagree with it or don't understand it; there has to be some intent to deceive or mislead.

Keeponstalin ,

The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.

Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress

Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.)

  • page 240

In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.

  • Page 402

The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy

WamGams ,

What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?

frazorth ,

All you said was complete stupidity. 19 years of rule under Hamas only produced terrorist tunnels?

All of that is a direct response to 30+ years of Israeli genocide.

WamGams ,

Building tunnels as the sole piece of infrastructure for your people is the sole response to a 30 year genocide?

I don't think that is true, and I don't believe you think that is true either. It sounded good when you said it though, and I'm sure it felt even better.

frazorth , (edited )

the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.

I wasn't the one who said that tunnels were the only thing they have done, that was literally you. But it's also irrelevant because I wouldn't expect any infrastructure works to be prioritised when a small country is under attack.

When the IRA demanded their land back, we were allowed to agree with their cause of no occupation without saying that their tactics of bombing trains was a good thing.

When the LTTE violently attacked Sri Lanka, people were allowed to feel for the ongoing Tamil persecution, without agreeing to the murdering.

Why can't I say that Hamas is a product of its environment, caused by the pain that Israel creates while also saying that the actions of Hamas are terrible.

WamGams ,

The money never made its way to the Palestinian people, is the point.

Where did it go?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism

An independent Palestinian state would give the Palestinian people a chance to throw off the yoke of Hamas.

WamGams ,

I don't believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don't generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.

A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.

Man, if the choice is "right-wing fuckheads in a sovereign and potentially functional state" and "right-wing fuckheads in a Bantustan that's currently being genocided by a foreign country, boosting the popularity of said right-wing fuckheads", I think the choice is obvious.

WamGams ,

I'm not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.

If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.

They don't want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.

Hamas doesn't have the power to carry out the genocide they want to. Israel does.

They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.

Fuck man, I'm anything but pro-Hamas. I don't think they're making this offer in good faith, and even if they were, there are certainly more resolutions to pick from. I'm just pointing out that between the current state of affairs and a bad peace, the bad peace is preferable.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine

WamGams ,

I ask myself the same thing.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone.... there is no price for you!!!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You're an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.

WamGams ,

The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.

And no offense, but you aren't paying that cost either. Doesn't mean we deny the cost will be paid.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

I mean there are literally almost no more Palestinians alive on Earth anymore but go off

tocopherol , (edited )

Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.

WamGams ,

You might have blood on your hands, but I don't.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas

Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?

Ullallulloo ,
@Ullallulloo@civilloquy.com avatar

No, obviously Hamas would not take a deal that is conditional upon [the UN?] removing them from power and holding elections.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Not obviously. Hence my request for clarification.

WamGams ,

Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.

WamGams ,

So.. You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

The basis of your statement is nonsensical.

Terror organisations don't control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)

WamGams ,

Which is why they won't be handed autonomy over Palestine.

Glad we are in agreement.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

But are Hamas asking for autonomy over Palestine? Conversion to a political party doesn't necessarily imply this.

WamGams ,

Did they not take away the Palestinian right to elections back in 2006?

If you want to argue that Hamas has liberalized in the last 19 years, or even the last 6 months, by all means make that argument, but I am growing bored of the rhetoric I am currently being given.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Did they not take away the Palestinian right to elections back in 2006?

Which is why I asked about elections and opposition parties.

If you want to argue that Hamas has liberalized in the last 19 years,

No.

or even the last 6 months,

No.

but I am growing bored of the rhetoric I am currently being given.

You are being given no rhetoric. I was asking a question.

Blackmist ,

Probably, but they don't deserve to live under Israel either, and one of those is much more effective at killing them all.

Two state solution has to be the way to go, after that the people can have a Palestinian Spring if they want and overthrow Hamas, but whoever comes after is likely not going to be much better. They never are.

Colour_me_triggered ,

Yes, a two state solution is the only viable option. The problem is that Palestine never agrees to any of them. They won't this time either. As far as Hamas is concerned they'll only accept it if Tel Aviv is part of the independent Palestine. They regard the whole area as Palestine.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

The guy I'm the op is literally talking about the 1967 green line.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.

The thing is: the Israelis don't get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.

intensely_human ,

Israel is preventing this self determination by enforcing the weapons blockade on Gaza. All Israel has to do is nothing. Just stop actively preventing these people from being armed, and the human spirit will do the rest.

And just to be clear, I do NOT mean “CIA should go train some paramilitary to take down Hamas”.

Instead I mean “This is a gun store. Any adult may come here and trade money for a gun. That gun is now yours to do with as you see fit. You can hang it on your wall. You can use it to make sandwiches. You can shoot cans in an alley. Whatever. It’s your gun.”

Literally just let these people exercise their rights.

Ullallulloo ,
@Ullallulloo@civilloquy.com avatar

Israel is preventing this because, in practice, most people don't want to die in a civil war. This would just lead to better-equipped terrorists killing even more Jews.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Americans, man.

bartolomeo ,

I dunno the question but the answer is more guns B-)

Tryptaminev ,

Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?

I see statements like "Free Gaza from Hamas" to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote "Arbeit macht frei". "Work makes free",

Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.

WamGams ,

Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?

Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.

I won't be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.

Tryptaminev ,

If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of "not taking a deal from Hamas". And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn't address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules

Phegan ,

They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.

assassin_aragorn ,

I mean yeah, but why can't we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?

WamGams ,

The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren't actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.

Because they almost certainly aren't real accounts.

roguetrick ,

Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.

WamGams ,

Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.

Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?

roguetrick ,

Oh, it's just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I'm that case I don't think you're being vacuous.

WamGams ,

I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.

Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can't differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.

roguetrick ,

The level of irony here is quite amusing. You're complaining that you're being accused of things you aren't by saying that I'm accusing you of things I didn't.

WamGams ,

You are in my inbox defending the accounts I mentioned.

roguetrick ,

Must be a grand conspiracy right?

WamGams ,

I think more intelligence would be on display in these accounts if the conspiracy was grand.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Hey it's you again... Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope

WamGams ,

Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren't actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain't no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.

Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I'd prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced... Otherwise it's boring.

I wouldn't accept payment for this, I have a real job that's actually productive and makes peoples' lives better in tangible ways. That's enough for me. This is just bonus.

Maybe that's just a "leftist" attitude that you can't comprehend.

WamGams ,

Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don't know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.

intensely_human ,

The first step toward true justice is removing the weapons blockade from Gaza. Allow the people to exercise their god-given right to be armed, and give them the chance to kill Hamas themselves. It’s a ruling junta, not a legitimate government. Palestinians haven’t consented to Hamas in decades, and Israel is keeping them disarmed (which obviously is only affecting the regular people, and not doing anything to keep Hamas from arming).

Let them arm themselves. Let them do as they will with their overlords.

Ullallulloo ,
@Ullallulloo@civilloquy.com avatar

Why would that go better in Palestine than in Afghanistan where the people didn't fight the terrorists even after decades of training, arming, and attempted nation-building?

intensely_human ,

Because it would be a different strategy. In Afghanistan we coddled them, acted as their trainers and support structure for two decades. Of course they weren’t going to fight when we left. We didn’t train them to fight we taught them military tactics. People fight on their own if they’re able; it’s human nature.

In Gaza what I’m proposing is to stop blockading weapons. Nothing more. It’s a violation of those people’s rights to deny them weapons.

WamGams ,

I think an autonomous zone like we see in Syria would be a great thing.

intensely_human ,

I’m not familiar with it. What is that and why do you think it’s a good idea for Gaza?

WamGams ,

An autonomous zone is a geographical area in which the established state has lost (whether temporarily or permanently) authority, and the people within the zone are governed through direct democracy. I believe democratic anarchism is the term most autonomous zones fall under.

I think the Palestinians, or at least Gazans could strongly benefit from this. But of course, to set something like this up, we need to get the Palestinian people food, water, weapons and radios, all things are which both Israel and Hamas are preventing the Palestinians from having.

mycathas9lives ,

Pre-1948 borders are the real solution for the Palestinians to have their own place. I support pre-1948 borders versus everything we are seeing today. People are behaving exactly like the people they feared and despised the most. It's weird, but so are they.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Pre-1948 as in going back to the borders of the one state Mandatory Palestine? Any solution that entails the destruction of the state of Israel is dead in the water for the international community.

What the official is proposing here (two states) would be about the only way to peace.

ILikeBoobies ,

I would be happy with Palestinians having equality

Maggoty ,

Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you're just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.

n3m37h ,

Peace doesn't sell arms (weapons)

Passerby6497 ,

Peace means Israelis can't steal land from people their government murdered.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place.

Alright, while on a moral level this offer would be definitely the right thing to accept (ASSUMING complete good faith), it could be much, MUCH worse. Hamas has shown a willingness and ability to commit to large-scale attacks on Israel - considering the long, long history of antisemitic and genocidal rhetoric Hamas officials have engaged in, "Five years of not disrupting an enemy's plans and organization" is a five-year recipe for an even-better coordinated and funded attack.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.

(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.

Yes, like I said, assuming complete good faith. But even then, laying down their arms wouldn't mean that fighters for their cause would no longer exist; it would simply mean that a better-organized Palestinian military would take its place.

My point isn't "Five year truce bad", it's "Five year truce good but there ARE reasons to not accept it even from an abstract standpoint"

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

A better organized Palestinian military is a natural consequence of independence. And ideally yes, the best trained Hamas fighters will be joining it and be under government control, fighting against the hardliner splinters to enforce the hypothetical Independence Peace agreement, rather than being the hardliner splinters.

The road to peace will be very very messy. It is the bed Israel made and has to sleep on. The time when a relatively clean, peaceful transition to 2SS could have happened was right after Oslo. But here we are and it's either a super messy transition to 2SS that will require nerves of steel to not intervene in the civil war, or a super messy transition transition to a democratic post-apartheid 1SS that will also require nerves of steel and a political and cultural transformation. Or ... the ethnic cleansing, which hardliners in both Israel and Palestine dream of and we all dread.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

hamas can't commit large-scale attacks on israel... Nobody can... Does anybody remember the iron fucking Dome that they have? Nobody is attacking Israel it's retarded to think that they are.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Great news, too bad israel has zero interest in a Palestinian state nor peace. Israel wants to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians and expand their Lebensraum That much has been fully proven over the last six months.

With Biden sending 26 Billion dollars to reimburse all the costs of this Genocide, without strings attached, it's clear that the path forward for israel is to now fully commit to their Gaza Holocaust.

InformalTrifle ,

The “genocide” would halt immediately if Hamas returned the hostages and surrendered themselves. Hamas has zero interest in that, and the Palestinians have zero interest in that.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No israel has only said they will do a 6 week temporary pause and then continue the Genocide your claim is false.

This article is more than 2 months old - Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire deal and says victory is ‘within reach’

Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the terms of a ceasefire in Gaza proposed by Hamas and rebuffed US pressure to move more quickly towards a mediated settlement to the war, saying there could be no solution to Israel’s security issues except “absolute victory” over the militant group.

Furthermore israel is currently also committing Genocide in the West Bank. Do you blame Hamas and hostages for that too?

InformalTrifle ,

I stand corrected. Makes sense if you’re close to wiping them out. Otherwise you go back to the previous situation.

Do you have evidence for a genocide in the West Bank? Thought not.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

More than 2 months old

Yeah they're real close. Just a few more years and they'll get there.

Israel just committed Genocide in a hospital in north-Gaza which they claimed to have already conquered because Hamas popped up. So even the areas they claimed to have under control were not under control.

Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit

InformalTrifle ,

It must be difficult to stay in control with the tactics Hamas use, not caring at all about civilian lives, using human shields, suicide bombs, fighting from civilians buildings etc.

The IDF probably knows far more about that than we do

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So you're still defending IDF and israel now that all of the Hasbara got debunked.

InformalTrifle ,

So you’re still defending jihadists and their supporters

NoLifeGaming ,

Oct 7th would've never happened if israel didn't treat the Palestinians like human animals. If your excuse they hide terrorists whats your excuse for how they treat Palestinians in the west Bank where hamas isn't a thing?

InformalTrifle ,

ISF reported 305 shooting attacks committed in or emanating from the West Bank in 2022, more than triple the attacks (91) recorded in 2021. In press reports, Israeli officials described these incidents as terror attacks

Hamas may not be based in the West Bank but other Islamic terrorists certainly are, and Hamas is certainly widely supported there.

Where do you live? How would you treat neighbouring countries that rocket attacked you constantly and wanted you wiped out in the name of their religion?

If anything Israel showed significant restraint prior to October

NoLifeGaming ,

come to another persons land

steal their land and homes

kill their children and rape their women

humiliate their people

surprised pickachu face when they get radicalized and fight back

I dont endorse the extreme actions of hamas or any other group. But lets get something straight are you saying that all the oppression Palestinians face can be explained away by extremeist groups? Do you reject all the accounts of human rights organizations which have documented the plight of the Palestinians? And do you condemn the actions of israel?

InformalTrifle ,

It’s a tragedy whats happening to civilians in Palestine. Hamas needs to be destroyed and I hope Israel can minimise further collateral damage. (Though it must be exceptionally difficult with the tactics Hamas use)

But I hold the jihadist organisation Hamas (that still has widespread support) fully responsible for this tragedy, as I would hold the Nazis responsible for German civilian deaths.

NoLifeGaming ,

So why extend the destruction to hamas who commits extremists actions but not israel?

ArmokGoB ,

Hamas butchered innocent civilians. They're ruthless and evil. The IDF is butchering innocent civilians. They're also ruthless and evil. There's no good side to this.

NoLifeGaming ,

That's a false equivalence. Sure, there are extremist actions which you can point to. But to completely omit that it was the Palestinians people which were expelled from their land and massacred is disingenuous.

ArmokGoB ,

The Palestinians pushed the Jews out before too. People have been fighting over the land for almost as long as people have been growing crops.

NoLifeGaming ,

The Palestinians are the natives. Most have cannanite DNA. Palestinians aren't just the Arabs/muslims but also include jews and Christians that have lived for as long. Jews who came from EU have no claim to the land

KISSmyOSFeddit ,

You say this as if the Jews weren't expelled from their home and massacred.

SwingingTheLamp ,

Wat?

The genocide has been on-going in slow motion for decades, so there's not chance in hell that Israel would stop, no matter what Hamas does. It's baked into the country's political system: It can't have a one-state solution and remain a Jewish ethno-state, and it can't have a two-state solution because the settlers are a vital part of the governing coalition. The only solution that Israeli politics can allow is to remove the people of Palestine. I'm sure they'd be happy with ethnic cleansing, but no other country can practically take in that many refugees, so the final solution is to simply kill them, which the IDF has shown no hesitation to do.

Son_of_dad ,

With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go

Linkerbaan , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

It's interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.

Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

No hamas is anything but peaceful lol.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who's land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.

This isn't a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.

Terrorist labels aren't used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren't used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren't used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren't used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.

Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yes, we normally elect leaders for 18 years.

Also, please check the definition of terrorism.

Pronell ,

And why haven't they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won't allow elections.

There are no good sides here, but that's a particularly bad gotcha argument.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So you are saying that the reason why they haven't had elections in gaza for 18 years is not because hamas tied opposition to cars and dragged them through the streets but a state which has a border with them?

Keeponstalin , (edited )

Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not 'having a border with them'

Edit:

To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.

Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.

Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO

Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009

Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty

Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty

Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas's 'mafia' PA - MEE

“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood
 - DemocracyNow

Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Israel is not in Gaza. I don't know how that is an occupying force.

biofaust ,

Israel controls the maritime space in front of and air space over Gaza, the anagraphical and fiscal systems and the access of goods and people.

Keeponstalin ,

Israel has had control of Gaza with the occupation and blockade since 1967, enforcing policies for the de-development of Gaza's economy. The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972.

With the Blockade, Israel controls all the sea, airspace, and border. Fishermen can't fish outside of 6-12 nautical miles before getting arrested or shot. Israel controls all travel in and out of Gaza. Over 60% of people were already food insecure before October 7th because Israel deliberately restricts food entering Gaza. Israel's policies of Water control left everyone in Gaza with half the water of the emergency WHO standards, now significantly less. Internationally, Gaza is recognized as Occupied.

Israel has shut off all food, water, electricity, and aid to Gaza. Because as occupiers they have that power over occupied territories. They've also repeatedly targeted refugee camps, hospitals, safe zones, and aid trucks.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly"

  • Minister of Defense - Yoav Gallant

The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy

Israel claims it is no longer occupying the Gaza Strip. What does international law say?

The Gaza Strip − why the history of the densely populated enclave is key to understanding the current conflict

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4738f069-fbe8-447b-914d-14ca4023d403.jpeg

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So Israel has the obligation indefinitely support Gaza?
Also the image you showed is a complete propaganda and a huge amount of facts is missed.

Keeponstalin ,

Israel deliberately decided to occupy Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in 1967. After being directly responsible for the expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians in 1948, many of which fled to those territories after having their homes and belongings destroyed during Plan Dalet. Since 1967, Israel has had control over Gaza as the Occupier, changing into a more brutal form of Occupation with the 2007 Blockade. Israel has been the one responsible for the de-development of Gaza. How can you possibly think Israel is 'supporting' Gaza?

That image is factual, especially when you consider the context of the wars Israel wages on Gaza.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b67a89fd-5dc3-45ec-80c7-66a243e6274d.png

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

You are posting images from aljazeera and calling them factual.
You also keep talking about Nakba (which I condemn) but fail to present that roughly 900k jews were forced out of Arab countries.

Your anti-Israel bias is truly unprecedented.

Keeponstalin ,

The first image wasn't from Al Jazeera, and both provide factual information. If you want to dispute a piece of information in the images, say what in particular and back it up.

The Jewish exodus from Muslim Countries was indeed terrible. However, using it to legitimatize the Nakba or Apartheid is also terrible. Many prominent Israeli Historians criticize the "Jewish Nakba" narrative, as it's called has been called, as being worse than the Nakba. There were certainly pogroms, property confiscation, and deportations against Jews in Islamic countries (considered push factors) which led to Jewish refugees to leave against their will. Notably in Iraq, Egypt, and Syria. However many decided to emigrate on their own accord, able to sell their property and move voluntarily. I'm also not aware of any Jewish refugees that are denied the right of return or citizenship.

Yeah, I'm biased against genocide and Apartheid States, you got me there.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So when it’s palestinians, they were forced out but when it’s jews, they left voluntarily and can freely return to Iran, Libya, Syria and totally won't be killed...

Keeponstalin ,

That's not what I said. I specifically said that there were certainly Jewish refugees; especially from Egypt, Iraq, and Syria. Besides Syria, yes as far as I can tell they can freely return. That doesn't mean they would want to or that they should. UNHCR allows for repatriation for refugees, however as far as I'm aware the vast majority of Jewish refugees chose to live elsewhere due to persecution.

However, saying all 850,000 Jewish people from the exodus were refugees is simply not true. Many voluntarily left due to pull factors such as the desire to fulfill Zionism or finding a better economic status and a secure home in either Israel, Europe, or the Americas. Many were able to sell their homes and move to where they wanted to.

Historian Tom Segev stated: "Deciding to emigrate to Israel was often a very personal decision. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual's life. They were not all poor, or 'dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits'. Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons, depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Some Palestinians also left because Muslim leaders said so whilst a lot of them were forced out. Same happened to Jews where in many muslim countries there are roughly zero jews out there.
Leaving because you face oppression is literally the same as being forced out.

But yes, when we are forcing out palestinians, it’s terrible but forcing out jews is completely fine...

To summarize, I condemn both actions but needless to say, arab countries have no right to criticize Israel because they have done literally the same thing.

njm1314 ,

If they were so in favor of Elections how come Hamas is the ones who cracked down on all those Palestinian protests the previous summer?

PugJesus , (edited )
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.

Jesus fucking Christ.

BraveSirZaphod ,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

I'd love to see your thoughts if you'd been in the area to experience Hamas' "peace" on October 7th.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Why would I visit an apartheid regime that colonizes stolen land?

BraveSirZaphod ,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

I certainly hope you're not an American and have never been to the United States, because I've got some unfortunate news about who that land properly belongs to.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Are Americans actively being resisted against by the people they are occupying or has there been a peace treaty somewhere?

I wonder.

Son_of_dad ,

Because Netanyahu is not Israel and Hamas is not Palestine.
Why do I not name Hamas leader? Maybe cause it's not common knowledge since they hide in Egypt and Jordan, in their villas and don't come out except to bomb malls and steal humanitarian supplies meant for Gaza.

But seriously why are you defending terrorists? I'm not defending Netanyahu, I'm saying he needs to be gone.

NoLifeGaming ,

Unfortunately, in a recent poll 80% of israeli said that israel should take into consideration the suffering of civilians. Only less than 2% said they believed the IDF is using too much fire power. I think there is a deeper issue with people's sentiments.

Source

avater , (edited )
@avater@lemmy.world avatar

sounds reasonable but on the other hand I wouldn't trust that terrorist dipshit a second. The Hamas does not care about Palestine or it's people...

Maggoty ,

So what's the downside? If they break their promise you just end up in the same place you're already in. Are you afraid there might actually be peace?

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