I believe in another Israel – one not defined by Benjamin Netanyahu and his cronies ( www.theguardian.com )

The Israel that I meet every day is made up of people who want to forge a path towards peace and security for all

Since the beginning of the war, I’ve met Arab-Jewish civil society organisations that exemplify this spirit, providing assistance across diverse communities.

pwalshj ,

“The state of Israel is in the midst of a difficult war…” Stopped reading.

sharkfucker420 ,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/3a47aac8-3f2e-4e9b-83af-080ee9a6065f.jpeg

drmeanfeel ,

But have you considered the pitched and complex conflict between [an advanced first world military] and [starving children]

Boiglenoight ,

Israel is killing an entire group of people for the actions of a few. In the short term they will be demonized, over generations people may say what choice did they have if not forget what happened altogether.

anas ,

I believe in no israel. No peace will be achieved until Palestinians get every inch of their land back.

Toldry ,
@Toldry@lemmy.world avatar

Your stance is as extremist as Ben Gvir and his ilk who say the same exact thing except replace “Israel” with “Palestine”

Don’t pretend to be an advocate of peace

anas , (edited )

I am not, nor am I pretending to be, an advocate for peace.

edit: typo

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Your end result would bring peace to the Palestinians.

anas ,

We have a saying here that boils down to “What was taken by force will only be returned by force”.

sharkfucker420 ,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f98511d2-760f-4b4d-b1d2-5c11b1d89ab9.png

Dkarma ,

I believe in an Israel called Germany.

Give them Germany.

KevonLooney ,

This is what should have happened, since lots of Berlin stores and apartments were stolen from Jewish people.

Although you have to understand that no Jewish person would take back their property in Germany after the war. Not only was it in cities that had been bombed out, their German neighbors had recently locked them up in concentration camps. Any sane Jewish person would want to get the fuck out of Germany.

But maybe they should have gotten their property back after 10 years or so.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

Dissolve this awful ethnostate experiment of a country

streetfestival ,
@streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

I believe in a two-state solution will full recognition of Palestine

Binthinkin ,

Imagine having George Bush or Putin lead your country into a grave. That’s what Ben is doing. He’s tried this dumb loser shit for 20 years.

Israel is being held hostage by militarist douchebags who couldn’t lead themselves out of a phone booth.

I hope Israel gets rid of him and his friends.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Gee how’d he get into power for 20 years?

disguy_ovahea ,

The same way Hamas has been in power for 17 years…elections.

Sometimes leaders diverge from the popular opinion and steer the nation at their whim. You can’t pin the actions of renegade leaders on an entire group or nation.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

How many elections has Gaza had in the last 20 years and how many has israel had?

MistressMaiden ,

Didn’t he literally had a whole multi-party coup get him out of government a year or so ago?

disguy_ovahea ,

Neither Hamas nor Netanyahu have the support of their people anymore.

reuters.com/…/only-15-israelis-want-netanyahu-kee…

MistressMaiden ,

Yes, that’s true, but your original comment said that they gained power through elections. It’s technically true but even then multiple parties threw him out of office a while back (not sure, but I remember hearing about it in the news).

And same with Hamas. Gaza hasn’t had a real election since the 2000s, they’ve protested against Hamas multiple times.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

There is no doubt the ruthless leaders of Hamas are willing to starve the residents of Gaza to death for the sake of the annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people.

That's not who is stopping aid trucks from entering, killing medics, and killing humanitarian aid workers. She's refusing to hold Israel accountable for its war crimes.

ModernRisk , (edited )
@ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yeah, they’re trying to spin this on Hamas while Israel is the very one not allowing food trucks and human aid for the Palestinians.

It is also not Hamas who’s killing thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians.

It seems they’re now trying to spin everything on Hamas while when looking back on history - it is clear as day.

EDIT: for the people that are downvoting me; you can keep downvoting but history does not lie and you cannot bend it to your liking. Israel literally has been murdering Palestinian civilians since 1948 up until today. They never have been ‘easy’ for allowing human aid, food trucks for Palestinians.

History does not lie. It never will.

Note: used the word “easy” due to the lack of a better word (or perhaps there’s but I don’t know it).

merthyr1831 ,

And so begins the inevitable “this is actually just Bibi’s fault, not us poor Israelis!” PR spin to try and get people to sympathise with the colonizers who will just elect an even more racist and evil genocidaire to do their bidding.

DoomBot5 ,

Was all of America defined by Trump?

merthyr1831 ,

Never said Israel was defined by Netanyahu, I said that Israel is defined by Zionism, which persists even if the figurehead changes.

As for your naff rhetorical, Liberal Americans ARE defined by the colonialism, rampant capitalism, and disregard for the environment inherent in the system they support.

veni_vedi_veni ,

What do you think an Israeli can do against their tyrannical government? There are already mass protests in their country for him to step down, give up their settlements in West Bank etc…

merthyr1831 ,

Lmao mass protests for a change in government whilst still flying Israeli flags and supporting the invasion of Rafah.

I can tell you what I expect Israelis to do when their government is committing a genocide in their name, but you won’t like it

xmunk ,

Netanyahu is on the wrong side of history… and so are you. There are a lot of assholes in Isreal but most people everywhere are just regular folks. You’re only a few steps away from shouting about “cultural bolshevism”. Don’t generalize by race, it’s what allows Likud to convince Isrealis that genocide is justified.

merthyr1831 ,

haaretz.com/…/0000018e-98d8-d591-a5cf-9fdddf10000…

Yeah the poor oppressed Israelis, who still back invading the last enclave of relative safety in the Gaza strip in their vain attempt to secure POWs that Hamas has already offered to swap for a permanent ceasefire.

Zionism is sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.

MistressMaiden ,

Bruh why does Haaretz have to be paywalled 😭

Jews4Palestine ,

I believe in a world without Zionism.

eardon ,

I think zionists are starting to infest lemmy.

They know how threatening it is to have a platform where people aren’t loyal to their cause.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

It’s not Zionism to understand that the Israeli people do not want war. 21% of Israelis are Palestinian. Netanyahu currently has a 15% favorability rating among Israelis. There are protests in the tens of thousands in the streets of Israel. He’s simply not long for this position.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

As soon as you said the word israeli its entirely about zionism. Thats it, thats israel, thats the only reason it exists

disguy_ovahea ,

That is a very ignorant understanding of the state of Israel. A third of Israel’s citizens are not Jewish, and the remaining citizens fall into three groups regarding its role as a Jewish state.

jewishcurrents.org/recent-polls-of-us-jews-reflec…

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

Less than a third. The ones that arent are arabs that were already living there and are trying to not get targeted by israels killing spree. Israels first settlers were zionists, its expansion was zionist, its formation as a country was zionist, its appeal to the US for military aid has perpetually been zionist, its continued assaults and illegal settlements in neighboring countries are zionist. Its government is zionist, its military is zionist, every facet of israel hinges on “jews are divinely allotted this land in particular”

disguy_ovahea ,

America was founded using genocide and slavery. Does that make all Americans genocidal slavers today?

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

things arent going well when you’re tryin to justify your side by comparing them to colonial Americans. Yes America had a pretty awful founding. But the motivation for that founding wasn’t for an ethnostate, and the motivation did not persist through all of American history to the present day. Puritanism itself doesnt even exist anymore. America is still pretty awful tho and shouldnt be imitated or tolerated to invade other countries and blow up civilians.

disguy_ovahea ,

I’m responding to a comment that likens the founding of Israel to the current Israeli people.

It’s literally the same statement about another nation.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

No, I addressed the entire timeline of Israel’s zionist motivation.

Maeve ,

Yes.

yesman ,

There is no such thing as a non-Jewish Israeli citizens. Can an Arab “citizen” buy land anywhere they wish? Can an Arab “citizen” repatriate refugee relatives? Can an Arab “citizen” commemorate the Nakba free of government discrimination? Can a political party that advocates equal rights for Arabs seat members in the Knesset?

You don’t get to celebrate diversity in an Apartheid State.

disguy_ovahea ,

That’s wildly incorrect. Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. The state of Israel is heterogeneous in both ethnicity and religion. Also, not all people of Jewish ethnicity practice Judaism. You should read more.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

yesman ,

How you define Jewish is irrelevant. They are the only people with full Israeli citizenship. Israel has racist laws, discriminatory policy, and separate services, like schools. A non-Jew has fewer rights in Israel. You can obfuscate, but you can’t argue.

disguy_ovahea ,

Immigrants may naturalize after three years of residency, and receive the same voting and state rights as a non-immigrant resident.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law

I’m curious, where are you getting so much misinformation from?

Billy ,

around 27% of israel’s citizens are not jewish. they have the same rights jews have, so yes they can buy land wherever a jew can.
there are 4 arab parties in the knesset.
one of them was part of the 2022 government.

Rentlar ,

checks profile

Rich words from a 6 day-old account. Regardless, I suggest you tone the rhetoric down a bit, even if I am pro-Palestine/anti-Zionist myself.

disguy_ovahea ,

I came here because of the extreme views pumped all throughout Reddit. I’m disappointed to see it’s not exclusive. I’m a moderate and empathetic person who cares more about the people caught up in the conflict than the conflict itself. I comment in response to uninformed opinions of nationalism or racism, with hope of providing clarity in defining the difference between a leader and a people. I’m equally clear about the distinction between Netanyahu and Israel as I am Hamas and the Palestinian people.

Transporter_Room_3 ,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

I believe in a pre-1948 Israel.

Linkerbaan , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Reminder that like 80% of israelis support the Genocide in Gaza.

Israeli public opinion has to date shown itself largely impervious to US and other international pressure, and support for the Gaza war currently hovers at around 80%

Karyoplasma ,

But but but Palestinians support Hamas too!!! Both sides!! (/s)

MistressMaiden ,

So I did a little research on this -mostly because every Israeli person I’ve talked to IRL and online vehemently hates what their government is doing. And I found that this article states that the poll was taken from Israel Hayom, which according to Wikipedia is:

Owned by the family of Sheldon Adelson, a personal friend and benefactor of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel Hayomhas often been criticized for portraying Netanyahu in an overly positive light.[8] In turn, Netanyahu has been accused of attempting to benefit Adelson’s investments.

Basically, careful where you get your sources. A Palestinian YouTuber I follow said “don’t trust Western media” and I have to back up that statement here. These people have an agenda, and Israel Hayom’s agenda is to help make Bibi look good.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for clarifying this. Are there other israel sources with better polling?

MistressMaiden ,

Haaretz seems to be a better alternative. Wiki says it’s left leaning and praised for its reporting and commentary.

And of course! Can’t trust much these days unfortunately.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Their conclusion that >50% of israelis refuse to give Palestinians a state is interesting but I can’t really find any numbers about support for the Genocide in israel

MistressMaiden ,

It’s the closest article I could find without having to go on an hours-long rabbit hole of trying to find out something better. Sorry about that.

But yeah, it is interesting. Tbh it kinda reminds me about how half of Russia supports the war in Ukraine and half of the US supported Trump. Half of everyone (or half of everyone who’s making their voice heard) is going nuts these days

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

True. But a recent Breaking Points video with Haaretz writer Gideon Levy did have him mention that he is a very lonely voice against the Genocide.

And that even many of his past anti Zionist friends have reverted to supporting the eradication of Palestinians again.

MistressMaiden ,

That’s heartbreaking

TokenBoomer ,

there is also more than 70% Israeli public support for a large-scale military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon

Uh-oh.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Moreover, they don’t want to witness further bloodshed in Gaza; instead they want to see the elimination of the murderous terrorism that declared war on Israel and slaughtered us mercilessly on that terrible day.

And Palestine wants its country back, the one you stole. They want to see the end of the murderous terrorism and genocide that invaded them so many decades ago, that every year kills their children and parents.

Thousands of Israeli citizens have taken to the streets, advocating for immediate elections, a deal for the hostages, and a more accountable leadership.

Where are the protests against the genocide Israel commits?

Why do you only protest against what’s affecting you and not what evils you are doing?

We must not allow Netanyahu – who is accused of criminal activity including fraud, bribery and breach of trust (he denies the allegations), who made dangerous alliances with extremists to form his government, and has even attempted to turn Israel into a de facto dictatorship through his government’s controversial attempt to pass “judicial reform” to dictate our relations and divide us.

You voted him into power multiple times over decades, you let him do this, don’t try to pin it all on him. As if Israel is the victim here and Bibi rubbed a magic lamp to get into his position of power against Israel’s wishes.

Israeli citizens are the ones thwarting Netanyahu’s authoritarianism, we are the ones holding him back in this moment.

Israeli citizens are the ones committing the massacres. It’s not magical robot ghosts marching in uniforms, firing tank shells, and raining bombs on Palestine.

Imagine a German during WW2 saying they were the real victims and the ones fighting Hitler. This is the revolting attitude on display in this opinion piece.

bartolomeo ,

Well said.

https://suppo.fi/pictrs/image/a244c44d-3c4f-4641-8807-417db8da2211.jpeg

TheFonz ,

What are you talking about?? This person explicitly stated she did not vote for Netanyahu. She is part of the coalition that is directly opposed to Netanyahu and his military strategy. What the hell is she supposed to do as a single person. What is the point of your comment? You really felt the need to grandstand or something?

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

I’m talking all of Israel. The Israel she is saying doesn’t support this, didn’t vote it, excuse etc.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

What the hell is she supposed to do as a single person?

She could start by going back in time and not pressing “send” on her poorly-disguised pro-israeli fud mischaracterizing israel’s genocide as a war and israels starvation of its citizens as Hamas’ fault. Then, after deleting her zionism-apologist garbage, she should stand up, drop her drawers, and kiss her own ass.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

This would be a nice story apart from the fact there was never a palestinian country. I don’t know how you can want a country back if you never had one.

Altofaltception ,

Israel was never a country either. Yet here we are.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yes, both were about to be created.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

The word palestine just spawned from the ether, not relating to anywhere or anyone.

small44 ,

Even if there wasn’t, Israel was created by jews that came from all over the world where a lot of people was already living on it, while current palestinian are decendents of pre-israel population

Billy ,

some jews managed to stay and survive in israel for thousands of years.
in addition to jews who came back to israel throughout the years like in the 1600’s, 1800’s and later on also in the 1900’s before israel’s rebirth.

MistressMaiden ,

I mean, there have been Jewish folks In the region before the modern state of Israel.

But yeah you’re right in that Israel came about because of the Holocaust and the fact that zionists wanted out of Europe and Europe was antisemitic still.

small44 ,

I’m not saying that there where no jews before that but the jews that created the state was the jew that came frim Europe and not those who was born in the region. That’s why i said palestinian and not arabs or muslims.

livus ,

That’s just semantics though.

People lived there, they had houses and fields and orchards and olive plantations and businesses, they lived normal, free lives with their friends and families.

All that has been taken away from them. I don’t care if you call it “owning a country” or not, the reality is that their lands and livelihoods were stolen using violence.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

I don’t know

this is clarity you could stand to have more often

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