Fascism has always been a feature of America and part of this country's core. The Trump admin is a real threat. It doesn't help the Dems fighting against fascist are perfectly fine with standing by and working with fascists with bipartisan efforts that only go in the right-wing direction.
If you stand beside fascists and are fine with state violence and genocide, you aren't some type of pillar of democracy. The reason the GOP is so strong no matter what they do, Dems will still address them as their friends and colleagues. While the GOP fights dirty and stays committed to long term goals in lock step.
What are you doing each day when you're not on your keyboard? The party represents the constituents. People are naive to the zero sum game stakes at hand. So they vote themselves into DNC positions. They're just people. Like you and me.
All people can do is support each other through mutual aid and education and local elections. The long track record of just pick the lesser evil and vote harder isn't working. Not much people can do.
We've seen it, us who live outside of America and have had the pleasure of being invaded. Must be nice to use everyone else's land as battlefields and never having to fight one at home, and ignoring the atrocities and fascism committed by your armies on foreign soil.
WWI and WW2 were absolutely necessary actions to contain others aggression. The Korean war is the only reason that the entirety of Korea isn't under an insane dictatorship. Afghanistan attacked the US (stupidly enough) Iraq v1 was to contain a war of aggression.
Vietnam and Iraq v2 were wrong.
and fascism committed by your armies on foreign soil.
When you send in your cia to round up citizens of foreign nations and execute/torture them, and fund death squads that disappear people without due process, what do you call that but fascism?
Extremely cruel, short sighted stupidity that kills many as well as so much corruption and infighting that the US government collapses. Of course, climate change is also going to make everything start to collapse soon anyway. At least the fascist savages will burn right along with everyone else.
I hate to break it to all the libs - but the US is already (and has been in the past) about as fascist as it can get. You want to see institutionalized (and perfectly normalized) fascism for yourself? Just look for your nearest cop - you won't have to look long.
Liberals have always signed on to US fascism - as long as it wasn't aimed at them, libs were fine with the imperialism and class repression (all the things you can't do without fascists) long before Trump was even born.
Trump is not a fascist - he's merely cosplaying as one. Trump knows he couldn't drain the swamp even if he wanted to - the swamp made him. This is not good news - the swamp (ie, the US political establishment) has always nurtured and maintained fascism to keep the people at the bottom from threatening the people at the top. US fascism is nothing new. - this call was always coming from inside the house.
I guess you're not well-acqainted with US history? You know... the parts that inspired the Nazis and the Apartheid-regime?
I don't think you know how bad it can get... or how bad it already is for the people the US designates as "other." And pretending that this can all be blamed on a cartoon fascist is peak white liberalism.
I am, that's why I know that the lived reality in Germany and the US doesn't resemble Nazi Germany in the slightest. The pogrom in Rostock-Lichtenhagen, the MOVE bombing, the Waco siege, and so on happened decades ago. In Nazi Germany, the state wantonly attacking “others” on that scale while crushing resistance like that was the daily norm, cheered on by the general public.
There's absolutely no comparison to what's happening these days: not in scale, not in public acceptance, and not in institutionalization. It's tragic what people are suffering from, but it's completely insane to think that we're living under fascism. Have you seen the images of Auschwitz? Have you read a single interview with someone who actually survived fascism?
So you are aware as to how the phenomenon we refer to as fascism today has always been a fundamental aspect built right into the very foundations of the US and every other classical liberal nation state?
If you're not, you need to go back to reading.
the MOVE bombing, the Waco siege, and so on happened decades ago.
And what has actually changed since then? Has the function fascism renders to the liberal nation state magically disappeared, perhaps?
and not in institutionalization.
Really? What kind of armaments do the most visible form of institutionalized fascism (ie, the police) carry around these days?
but it’s completely insane to think that we’re living under fascism.
You've been living with it all your life. You just don't recognize it because the liberals don't take the leash off their pet fascists around you.
Have you read a single interview with someone who actually survived fascism?
Lots of people survive fascism - like everybody in my country that was born before 1990. Your conception of fascism is downright cartoonish - that's why you are so incapable of realizing that you are already living with it all around you.
"...and this is why there shouldn't be any taxes" C'mon, go ahead, round that the corner, libertarian - we all know you want to.
I don't think you know what actual fascism is, or what it looks like. Your statement reads like you are boycotting universities and have casually avoided being "educated" by "credited professionals" so that you don't turn a "decent person" who "contributes to society" and "understands words".
Keep fighting that good fight, you do your own research!
I grew up in a fascist state, liberal. I know fascism in the bone. And here's the funny thing - so do you. The difference is that I don't tell myself canned narratives about it when it's staring me in the face.
That's what liberals do - and you sure hate it when anyone points all of it out to you.
But hey, who knows... maybe you will get to "vote harder" and, by some miracle, Biden gets a win come November. And then you'll be performing the exact same histrionics in four years' time and not understanding why.
You're a troll, obsessed with (and speaking as if you understand) the nuance of the US while you're all the way in South Africa. You have nothing to say and you're universally disliked.
I can't answer posts that Lemmy physically won't allow me to answer, genius.
(and speaking as if you understand) the nuance of the US while you’re all the way in South Africa
Yes... and? Is this the first time you've encountered people outside the US that understands US politics better than the majority of people inside the US?
Guess what... there's nothing strange about that.
You have nothing to say and you’re universally disliked.
Come now, liberal - I'm "universally disliked" because I have "nothing to say"? I expect that is going to make about as much sense as anything else I'm going to get out of you.
Not even closely. It has arrived, butchered all your neighbors one by one, now it is at the doors of those living in American Dream houses. You were just just chilling in your garden and paying taxes to the machine that was axing all the marginalized groups one by one, until this year when they are finally narrowing the "orthodox" line to leave the white liberal on the marginalized side. Enjoy the last vestige of comfort Biden tries to push for the U.S. citizen while straining your conscious with the suffering elsewhere, as was the accepted American liberal lifestyle for a quarter short of a century now.
As for the Europeans, don't be lazy or be apathetic and vote while you still have good candidates. Most of you have abysmal vote percentages because so far your governments kept your individualistic lifestyles untouched. Don't assume you can keep the peaking fascism tide via shifting Overton Window at bay without showing an almost identical solidarity the right wing shows at every continent on earth. The "Russian propaganda, blackmail, bribery, etc." is only the beginning. Iran had experienced the same meddling by the U.S. decades ago, the whole Middle East and North Africa have been experiencing it since early 2000 at least. Turkey started going down the same path with Menderes and American influence during the cold war in the 60's, and not even half a century later we have Erdoğan and even worse shariah-law touting coalition parties with him propping up now.
The marginalized groups were always marginalized. By definition they can only become not marginalized (e.g. women voting, repealing Jim Crowe, marriage equality).
Open thoughts... But I feel like it's dumb to equate every "fascist" to Hitler and use Hitler and WW2 imagery. I feel like it dumbs things down.
If you believe Trump or whoever is a fascist their actions and their own image is enough. People aren't going to think differently because X is portrayed as Hitler. It seems like gimmicky propaganda to do that. Anyone you would ever want on "your side" would understand this. As result people disregard both "sides". Do you want people to switch to your side because of social political marketing or because they are actually cognitive enough to have a real understanding of life and reality? Imo it seems like a way to get useless people to join your side out of emotion. In turn dumbing down your side to emotionally reactive people. Marketing doesn't get you a base that cares, it gets you a following.
I suppose that's fine in war if you want cannon fodder to use... But that also sounds like something an anti fascist wouldn't want.
In modern politics it's like it's an art to build the biggest base of useless people to abuse for cannon fodder.
You are right, but many Americans probably wouldn't get it if you used Stalin. For better or worse, Hitler is the face of fascism; Stalin the face of communism. They were both fascists, as were Mussolini, and Stalin.
It's just short-hand imagery; everybody knows what you mean. Pinochet was a fascist dictator, but he was also a brutal sociopath, so he's confusing, even if people recognized him.
Stalin was a totalitarian not a fascist. You can have authoritarian regimes without fascism. Stalin actively fought fascists, was the main reason we won D-Day. He was also a brutal vicious cruel man who ruled his inner circle through fear and paranoia.
A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)
Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, intolerant, racist or nationalistic views or behavior
How do neither of these apply to Stalin? Note the "or" in the second definition. The "Nazi" party was the "National Socialist" party. You have to look at the actions, not just the labels, right? Stalin was authoritarian, intolerant, and nationalistic. He created an authoritarian hierarchical government.
Stalin fits both definitions of Fascism. It doesn't matter that he was at war with other fascists; monarchies had for millennia fought other monarchies - it didn't make them not-monarchies.
belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]
I'm only ignoring it because what you're saying isn't in the dictionary definition of "fascism," and I'm not a political theorist. I'm just going by what the good book says.
belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy
What about Stalin makes you think he demonstrated any of this?
"belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and/or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy"
Is a direct quote from the link on Fascism,
I don't believe Stalin demonstrated any of that through policy.
While we shouldn't imply that every little chucklefuck is literally Hitler. Or that every group of fascist are literal Nazis. It would be more disrespectful to not learn the lessons of history. And wait till someone is on the verge of challenging the score. Republicans and trump have had their bonifides verified.
I thought "lol" was short for "Just wanted to let you know that I'm a millennial so you can better understand where I'm coming from with this comment."
Honestly that’s probably pretty accurate. Usually though, at least for me, it also functions to let people people know what I’m saying is lighthearted or fun but sincere. It’s kind of the opposite of /s. But yeah I imagine it’s a millennial thing though I’ve never given it too much thought
Project 2025 is the culmination of 50 years 'lesser evil' voting. Instead of accepting no evil, democrats tolerated right wing politics and its policies as long as it had a D next to its name.
Marginalized communities have been living with versions of P2025 all their lives. This only scares white liberals because its something that finally targets them. Democrats demanded we ignore our oppressors and vote for them and didnt have our backs. Now we wont have theirs for the mess liberals created.
I can’t argue with any of that. What I’m stuck on is just what the fuck to do now and what comes next.
Can you elaborate on your thoughts? I honestly can’t see a way out except for eating another shit sandwich and hoping that incrementalism can save us once sanity returns. But fuck, we’re cooked, sanity is gone for good so I’m out of ideas and the alternative only makes it worse for everyone. I’m at a point where I’m happy to vote against my best interests but that’s kinda what I feel I’ve been doing all this time.
Incrementalism is what got us here. We were led to believe that incremental baby steps is what was necessary for progress. They use those incremental baby steps as small, little, minute, undetectable steps to the right. They compartmentalized the rightward shift so all we saw were small puzzle pieces and couldn't piece them together to show the larger overall picture. And when people started to challenge their views, they would throw the marginalized communities in front of them to defend their actions, ' you challenging our systems might hurt this black person, it might throw this lgbtq+ person under the bus,' etc. and I use that tactic to silence opposition. It's the same tactic that Republicans use when they scream 'save the children'
If incrementalism actually worked, we wouldn't be having the same discussions about wages and housing and healthcare and education that we were having 50 60 70 years ago.
Regarding P2025 we are at the
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
So right, I get all that, but I’m not terribly interested in retribution for what got us here, I’m interested in tangible ways to go forward. I think all our choices are shit right now so what, just don’t vote so that I can sniff my own farts for being above it all?
I’m at the point where I agree…ish. I do believe that there is a lot of deliberate actions by the power structure of both parties but I see some actual humanity and thought coming from one side, pure spite and malice from the other and complete and utter insanity from the comedy option. Problem is the humanity in the party has gotten nothing done (not for their lack of trying) and has no control so I am have officially given up on them.
So I’m left with zero options. Great fucking country we have here that I’m utterly trapped within.
I think it would help to imagine this as if we've already arrived at the peak of fascism - what would you be doing then? Likely mutual aid, political (probably undergroud) organizing, civil disobedience, ect. This is what they mean when anarchists say 'you can't vote fascism away', and this is what leftists mean when they say voting in this election doesn't really address the crisis.
The hard work of resisting fascism happens everywhere but the ballot box.
Thanks, I appreciate the perspective, I’m trying to pull myself out of this bullshit, never been more clear that my vote means nothing, the system does as the system does.
The hard work of resisting fascism happens everywhere but the ballot box.
You realize that doing all of that hard work would be much harder under Trump than Biden right?
Even if you're the most communist person ever, it makes sense to vote for Biden, he atleast tolerates your existence, and that'll make all praxis easier than under Mr. "Root out the communist vermin" Trump
That's not the point: voting is unrelated to the work of uprooting fascism. If you spend all your energy getting Biden elected, you are still no closer to solving the problem.
There is some credence to using that as leverage to get liberals (whose only concern seems to be getting their guy elected) to engage the actual work of eliminating fascism, but that's not what I was advocating here.
That's not the point: voting is unrelated to the work of uprooting fascism.
I mean that's partially true, but If the praxis for destroying American fascism is going to be so much harder under the rule of the fascist rather than the rule of the liberal, then shouldn't making sure the liberal stays be a prerequisite to the other praxis?
If you spend all your energy getting Biden elected, you are still no closer to solving the problem.
I certainly don't think it's the only thing leftists should be focusing on. We need more organization around lots of things other than electoral politics (Union's, Economic Rights, Building Up Socialist Orgs, etc), but I don't see us making real gains federally with any of these other spheres of organizing with Trump in power.
shouldn't making sure the liberal stays be a prerequisite to the other praxis?
Certainly not a prerequisite, no. The work that needs doing is no different in either case, and is met with hostility (of different scales, sure) under either presidency. Both will protect the institutions we seek to dismantle with force; one will simply be more open about it than the other.
For a leftist, neither candidate changes that reality. It will simply be more comfortable under one than the other.
For a leftist, neither candidate changes that reality. It will simply be more comfortable under one than the other.
I mean, I'm perfectly aware Biden isn't going to institute an American Meidner plan or start nationalizing key infrastructure and industries tomorrow and would probably vehemently oppose anyone trying to do so.
But if all I have to do is show up one day this year, and try and get my friends to do the same, just to not be possibly persecuted for any LGBT or socialist affiliations, that feels like not that big of a hassle for the gain of atleast keeping the status quo.
Every other volunteering and organizing day of the year is still going to be towards something not directly related to electoral politics.
The problem is that, as I see it, we are at a point where we can'tjust show up one day. I would rather light a fire under your ass to help address the existential problems than nod my head solemnly in agreement that the best we can do is not have a Trump presidency.
And it isn't just that Biden won't be involved with a socialist agenda, it's that he's all too happy to let the pigs spray down protestors working to push for change and accuse them of being paid actors. Right now, he's in a spot where he has to listen to his base, so now is absolutely not the time to absolve him of all his inadequacies.
Biden has never once called communists vermin, never once called for them to be expelled from our society, Biden has worked repeatedly with socialist politicians here and abroad.
There's a monumental difference between Trump and Biden, but I guess if you refuse to engage in basic political analysis and see the difference between Liberalism and Fascism you can just sit on your island over there remaining eternally politically ineffective.
In what way is anyone here defending the status quo by calling Trump a fascist? Pretty sure the only people really doing that are Progressive and Socialist Democrats, who do absolutely not defend the status quo.
Hitler was described as a charismatic and compelling speaker. That’s historically how he was able to capture so much of the German audience. Only once he had a strong following did he begin attacking the BBC as “Lügenpresse” (fake news), isolating Germans from trusting in international media.
Yeah but that's how some people describe Trump. I can't fathom how one could listen to him speak without getting the impression that he's a narcissistic moron but that's how it goes I guess.
I think that begs the question of whether or not many felt that way about Hitler in 1930s Germany. I'm guessing he was well spoken enough that even those that disliked his message didn't have the same opinion of him that I do of Trump. They likely saw him as a threat and someone to fear for his ability to sway others to his cause. Trump seems successful largely in spite of himself which is odd, but again I can't see anything other than a clown with little man syndrome so maybe they are successful for largely the same reasons. They do have a lot of similarities. I just have to imagine Hitler was more cunning and less sniveling.
As a German, his speeches are not dumb or incoherent as Trump's, but they are really that good either. Basically constantly screaming and a very weird cadence.
Messagewise, it's pretty close, though. MAGA and Deutschland über alles are not that different. Actually, making Germany as great as it's been before Versailles was kind of the entire point of the Nazi party (and of course The Jews™ were responsible for all of that ).
In his time, Hitler was ridiculed for his weird looks and barely coherent speeches. It was thought he would be ineffectual and easily controlled by more seasoned politicians when he was allowed to become cancellor (he only got about 35 percent of the popular vote but managed to build a conservative coalition). To underestimate his and his party's plan to dismantle democracy, which was plainly laid out in Mein Kampf, was a grave mistake of course. More info here: https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/germany-1933-democracy-dictatorship/
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