AA much hate this might be getting, they're offering discounts on a new product, and 16 years is a hell of a lifetime. Imagine having to support software written in c99 maybe even c89, with some homebrew UI full of bugs.
I understand you may be from a field where supporting software from the 70s is required, however someone is probably paying big bucks for that software as well. Replacing the software you work on might cost millions, replacing a thermostat costs 300 usd.
I would love to live in a world where software support lasts 70 years. But consumers don't look at software support, so it's not budgeted in the price, and thus doesn't happen in the consumer space. Getting 16 years in a consumer device is long.
In the field you're working, stability, longevity, and robustenes is probably a requirement, not a nice to have.
I'm in my house right now with a perfectly working thermostat that's 70 years old.
And given the mechanism of action it will continue working in another 70 years.
16 years for hardware used inside of homes is a ridiculously, absurdly, short lifetime. Even for a vehicle that would be pushing the edge of "too short".
That said 16-year-old software is not that old. If it's built using sane language choices it should actually be functioning and modern today.
That is true, but my smart TV and smart scale both got something like 5 years of updates. Who buys a new scale every 5 years? My parents still have a scale from the 90s that works fine.
Think about it like this: Even if the average home nowadays had only about 10 such devices (I am quite sure the average home has a lot more), that are needed for kitchen appliances, heating, warm water, window shutters, solar panels, etc to function - that means on average about once a year one of the essential functions in the house stops working unless you replace a part. Not because it's broken, but because "SW support is discontinued". Seriously, I want to smash everyones faces for those "early adopters" who think smart homes are great, and of course the companies who put software in every little component.
Most thermostats would fail in that timeframe. Our original Nest thermostat failed this year because the connection that turns on the furnace wore out or became thin. Caused our furnace to click on and off repeatedly and ruined a relay on the furnace’s circuit board. Had to replace the thermostat and the furnace circuit board. Costly repair. Upgrade your thermostat before it wears out.
My thermostat is original to our 1941 house, and has survived a fire. My mom just sold her 1989 house with a digital programmable thermostat - also original to the house -that functions perfectly.
No part of a house should wear out and break after 16 years, except MAYBE carpeting. Building things like shit is no excuse for things being shitty, it's an indictment against it!
I will never understand the appeal for cloud based home automation.
All the spying aside, 16 years and your thermostat is no longer supported sounds ok until you think about how if you replace everything with cloud based equivalents you are always going to be having to replace things going out of service. I think its funny that you pay more for a device that lasts for lot less (How many thermostats have people seen fail?). I guess the companies are happy?
The appeal is remote and centralized management, easier programming and more features. If that’s not worth it to you to replace your thermostat every 16 years, then nobody is forcing you to get one.
But being able to change the temp from my phone from anywhere is worth it to me, as well as including it with other automations for all my connected devices. The appeal is honestly not hard to see, even if it’s not worth it for you personally.
You know (I hope) that that functionality does not require a cloud based service right? You are describing features for things I was playing around with 20 years ago, what you need is a program or app, not a live service. The appeal of controlling your things from your phone is not new.
No it doesn’t require it but it can make it easier. Especially for people that don’t have a robust and centralized way of controlling their smart devices, or only have 1-2 of them. I think the appeal is still obvious.
Honestly this makes me feel that not adopting IOT is still a good idea. Yep I am probably leaving some efficiency on the table, but I get more reliability in exchange.
I was told I needed to sell ecobee and nest when I worked in HVAC. I refused because of this and sold everyone white Rodgers because they can't/won't just shut down the thermostat screwing the end user. I saw this bullshit from day one.
Yeah I have always felt the simple programmable thermostat is all I need. I do like the full week versions, but it seems like the 5-2 models are more readily available if you are just looking in the store.
Edit ~~Oh I just realized I forgot a not in my first post ~~ never mind I can't read
Yeah I know that is a thing I might even be able to figure it out, but I am a bit of Luddite. By choice though, I have an okay understanding of tech but I don't see the advantage in many cases. I much prefer the reliability and simplicity of legacy tech. Also I am much more likely to be able to fix it myself if needed.
Before sears took a shit, I had to fix my mom's range. It was built some time in the 90s. The manual has a trouble shooting guide. I was able to call the sears help line and buy just the part I need and get it mailed to me. Everything was designed to be fixed and there was legacy company support.
Even with an IOT LAN. Repair of the hardware and often the firmware is not possible. You just have to buy a whole new expensive smart thing. I don't like that.
There are options. Some IOT things are even DIY with open specifications and open firmware, so you can build and repair them yourself. And a lot of times it's the cheapest option, way way way cheaper than the usual IOT stuff, as most electronics used for IOT are dirt cheap.
I haven't really started on top of the open movement. Other than to bitch about John Deere. I love their tractors, fucking hate their proprietary software and their nefarious data collection.
Well that is not entirely true. The bitching about JD is true, but I have tried to stay informed on right to repair. But I don't seek out an open solution to things I don't need. I am all for GNU/GPL and have been using Linux for 20ish year.
I assume a lot of this open IOT is Arduino based everything I have read about Arduino I like, I just can be bothered to learn how to use and program it.
I have learned that I prefer not have to much tech, I have only had a smartphone for 4 years. I got one mostly because it became near impossible to navigate life with out one. Is seem like everyone wants to do things though apps now.
Every one of my IT colleagues over about 35 is an absolute luddite. No IoT, no smart appliances, and a hardened firewall for everything that needs access. Location tracking and biometrics disabled on our phones, no cloud services, etc.
That's why one uses an industry standard that is brand-independent,operates offline by design and does not require a central component besides a power supply.
Sounds like utopia?
This standard has been available since 1990 in its archaic form, since 2002 in its current form.
It is downwards compatible and over 400 companies worldwide are part of the standard.
HomeAssistant, ioBroker, openHAB,etc. all support it directly and there are multiple crossover gateways with other standards like DMX, ModBus, Dali,etc. exist.
And no, it's components are not more expensive once you look at the TCO.
For fucks sake, people, use KNX.
(PS: There are even a few open-source/DIY components available)
Get a few components (e.g. Actors, a sensor), a gateway (USB is enough for the start,they often go cheap if you buy used,got mine for 10 bucks) ,a power supply (Meanwell is a good idea) and the free version of the ETS programming tool.
(The ETS is the only downside of the system - it's expensive especially for larger installs)
No,it isn't.
But no open and local solution will be - but you pay for that in terms of long term usability, resilience and data.
It's a choice a mature customer needs to make. Be cloud and manufacturer reliant,invest the time to do it properly or pay someone to do it.
And KNX.org works for me(even tried it with a VPN to be sure) - and do you really think that a standard that is supported by the largest companies in the field(Siemens, ABB, Bosch, Schneider, etc.) and has multi-billion of installations in professional buildings alone per year is not for the long term?
Haha, no. But I know someone who was part of the OpenTherm development.
To quote him:
OpenTherm exists because Plumbers don't trust Sparkys and Sparkys don't trust plumbers.
OpenTherm is easy to install but "stupid" as hell and not adaptable to modern needs mostly, especially if you consider modern heating concepts like passively heated houses, heat pumps,etc.
That's different from KNX (or Modbus in that regard) - They are much broader in their appeal. Singule use/walled garden systems are always a bad idea,imho.
The good thing is: You can easily replace OpenTherm with KNX.
Afaik there are Gateways that mimic Opentherm towards the heater so you can use KNC for the actual control.
The thing is: The standard itself is rather well designed and didn't need too much updates (they just extended the possible packet contents in terms of possible parameters - which technically isn't that necessary as you can fall back to ASCI).
The last major updates were more towards extending functions (KNX over RF), connecting locations via IP tunnel, and securing the packets themselves (which is not really necessary for single household installations but VERY much for multi tennant installations).
The major strength of KNX is the bus packet system itself - as the packets are standardized there are only a few attack avenues. An attacker could flood the bus with packets, try to update with fraudulent code (if none did put a password on it) or try to put fraudulent content in a module that accepts ASCI packets.
The problem is the access - the attacker would need physical access or the IP gateway (if existing)would need to be unsecured towards the internet...
In the end it is a fairly resilient piece of software.
If you have a home office or someone is at home 24/7, then yes. Otherwise it would make sense to reduce the heating/cooling of the house when no one is home and setting the correct temp again when people are about to get back. Saves quite a few bucks.
The system does exactly that - But that is done automatically without intervention.
The system recognises by checking on our devices and the presence detectors if we are at home.
If we aren't it reduces the temperature.*
Then it looks into our calendars when we can be expected to be back and increases the temperature accordingly (additionally once we enter a certain Geofence).
*:The overall heating effort is also based on the current and expected weather and sun-influx,as I have some rooms that basically heat themselves when the sun is out.
The system is using that effort to adjust shades (e.g. it would allow a lower living room temperature in the morning after we left when it knows that there will likely be a sunny afternoon heating the room without the need to add external heat)
This is what I mean with smart: A smart system is only smart if the user doesn't have to fiddle around with it. Everything else is a remote.
(My next goal is to add personalised heating. I want the system to recognise who is/comes home and adjust the temperature accordingly as my wife wants other temperatures as I do. O can do it room based, e.g. the kid's room is adjusted according to the kid being there, but overall I am not quite there yet)
I don't understand the mindset of people who buy these things in the first place. Occasionally there's an article like, "guy's entire house suddenly inoperable after Amazon ban," people just don't think that will happen to them? It is local control on a standardized protocol or nothing for me.
The newer Ecobee's can run entirely locally through their homekit integration. I tie mine into home assistant and use it that way. I would never have bought the device if that wasn't available.
If this old version doesn't have that available then I'm assuming people purchased it knowing that it was reliant on cloud services. It would be nice if they offered customers options besides just letting the device turn into e-waste but you can understand why they don't want to burn development hours on a device that's a decade and a half old.
Just another reason to never buy devices that can't function without a cloud service.
Yeah. The server and software should be open source and API available. That way we actually own the system and don't have to just toss it out if someone goes out of business.
Fucking ulock for example suddenly wants me to create an account and sign in to their website to use my front door lock! What the fuck is that! We need consumer protections for this sort of shit. I didn't sign up to giving away when I come in and when I go out of my house! WTF to the max!
Probably because this came out 16 years ago, before HomeAssistant even existed, it will still maintain wifi support for checking and controlling with your phone even after they cut off the cloud connection, and all their new products do have a local API and can still be used with HomeAssistant or whatever other local home automation server you have.
It's just on and then hold b for boost now. It automatically detects which slot you have placed your pan on and selects that for you. But I get your point...
Neff has a (magnetic/removable*) knob as well.
(* Which is a great idea in theory. Unless you have kids. First it's great because they can't start the cooktop on their own. But then you are constantly looking for the knob. A friend nearly got insane...His daughter "accidentally" took the whole fucking thing on a schooltrip to France....HOW? That's why I have the Siemens one with touch.... It's okayish touchwise and it works...)
Yeah I guess I'll consider it one day when they will be cheap enough, but now even the stupid-UI ones are fairly expensive and the knob ones quite expensive (thanks for all induction knob pists btw 😁).
Long clicking on [3] then + + + + + + to boil your f eggs?
A lot of them have a terrible UI. But that's far from all of them. Enough have sliders. Sometimes one with a pan detection. Sometimes a slider per area.
I just bought one of these! First press on, then wait a second for the pan to be detected, then select the burner to turn on, then + which sets it to 5/10, then press + 5 more times for full power! The one with knobs was like double price...but hey the pan heats up quick while you are cursing at it.
It will light up an indicator for each pan detected, so if 2 pans are on the stove you still need to activate the one you want. Assuming you don't want both on.
Then one small drop of water (what is water doing in the kitchen??) touches the touch-surface and all goes beep beep beep while your pasta water slowly cools down...
Why do we allow this? Companies that contribute to operate should be severely penalized if they don't A)) continue to support legacy products B)) offer FULL replacement if servers/apps shutdown or C)) open source EVERYTHING is they are going to try to kill a device.
They just killed my nest cameras, but the thermostat is still supported. I was planning on replacing it with an ecobee this year just because API access is kind of a pain but this is giving me some second thoughts.
Our smart thermostat has never been all that useful to me. The main thing is I don't have to walk over to it to change the temp. But that convenience isn't really worth the $150 I paid for it.
The idea is that you can use peaks and drops in electricity pricing to optimize the usage and also to lower the house temperature when nobody is home and raise it again when an occupant enters maybe a 1km radius around the place again.
The way you're using it is just a gimmick, that's true.
No, my point is: using it as I described really saves money. The effective power price for my heat pump over the last year is at about 20% beneath market average because I use the thermal mass of my floors to store energy during low price hours. That needs to run automatically, controlling that by hand would be massively annoying or not possible at all when I'm not home.
In addition, when one of our cars is started at one of our respective work carparks the hot water supply is checked and gets heated if it is below the necessary temperature for a shower. So either the day brought enough solar energy that it's hot enough anyway or the water is heated very specifically for the after work shower for a person returning home. That prevents the heat pump from having to keep high temperatures all day in winter.
The blinds follow the sun when the room temperatures pass 22°C and the solar panels deliver more than 2kW, because in that case it's obviously sunny. Saves a lot of energy for the AC.
All that saves way more than 100€/year, so remotely controllable fixtures stop being just a gadget when you start to think about the whole energy management in your house, is my point.
live somewhere that the temp changes enough that any of this matters ❌
"No you idiot, you just have to spends thousands of dollars on equipment and then you can save $100 a year"
Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Good for you that you're saving money, but I'm just giving a personal anecdote here, not writing a thesis on home energy management.
You don't need solar panels. Could also just be dynamic energy pricing. Also do not need a water heater. Thermal mass could just be heating the place at a certain time. Don't get the bit about temp changes, maybe you mean you never heat or cool your place?
A lot of those smart thermostats do not support things like OpenTherm. As a result they often either start the heating or they do not heat. There's no modulation.
OpenTherm is from 1990s. Having a thermostat with a presence sensor is also not really anything new. Adding remote functionality would be nice if those "smart" wouldn't be so utterly terrible at being a thermostat. Meaning, the lack of modulation. And no modulation is pricy way to heat your home.
Yeah, but don’t give the power company control over the temperature in your house. That has gone poorly in Texas with people unable to turn on their AC on super hot days because they opted in to some program that they may not have understood.
The built in features of occupancy detection / geo fencing are cool though.
That truly depends on how secure Ecobee made it… I’ve seen some smart devices that use SSL (https) for all communication and do some sort of certificate authentication, making it virtually impossible to decrypt its communication protocol without a valid private key…
Having said that, it’d be nice if Ecobee took the initiative and opened up these older devices, if they could do so without comprising the security of all their others.
In the last 16 years there's been multiple SSL vulnerabilities, so if someone was motivated enough, they could probably hack it, especially considering they'd have physical access. You could probably even dump out the filesystem and overwrite certificates with your own.
Is the firmware enclosed in a SOC with no way of reading/extracting it? If not, if all else fails, someone will extract it and dissect it with Ghidra or something, extracting whatever encryption keys are needed. If so, and there aren’t any documented side-channel attacks for reading the firmware from this SOC, if firmware updates exist, they too constitute an attack surface. (They probably would be encrypted, but how strongly?)
