rule ( lemmy.cafe )

FAQ

Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why arenā€™t you working to stop the bus?

A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts donā€™t succeed this election cycle. and if so donā€™t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. ā€œharm reductionā€ is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.

NauticalNoodle ,

Itā€™s a false dilemma. --For the reasons people reduce it and argue that it is an exclusively binary decision would by the nature of those reasons implicitly argue against the concept of living under any form of a functional democracy itself.

ArmokGoB ,

Theoretically, itā€™s not a binary decision, but practically it is.

OnePhoenix ,

This argument (to me at least) assumes that the other 4 non-voters would have all voted for ice cream which, by just using basic logic, is false. If 3 out of 5 have already voted to drive off a cliff, one has to assume that at least 2 of the remaining 4 would also vote to drive off a cliff. Now this argument is back to square oneā€¦ How do we find a solution which doesnā€™t give ā€˜driving off a cliffā€™ as an option in the first place?

bonus_crab ,

get the crazies off the bus. either give them their own clown car or stick them in the trunk.

NauticalNoodle , (edited )

I think thereā€™s evidence out there that suggests that only ~1.8 people of the remaining four non-voters would advocate driving off of the cliff but your point still stands. --That is, if people continue to strictly subscribe to the binary Dem/Repub mindset.

Emmy ,

Harm reduction is fine, but faced with a view going that way, why not use ranked choice. First choice might be Iā€™ve cream, but if you canā€™t do that, perhaps going somewhere else works.

spujb OP ,

love ranked choice! harm reduction in the meantime cuz if itā€™s gonna be a bit of time to get that running :)

davetapley ,

Flashbacks to when I lived in the UK and so much misinformation in the (failed) referendum to get it there.

Made me realize: Consider the average voter and then consider explaining the merits of different voting systems to them. Itā€™ll never happen.

Lyrl ,

It happened in Maine. And Alaska. And is on track in Nevada.

cheesebag ,

Democrats pushed through RCV in all these states and North Carolina, before Republicans repealed it. If you want RCV, if you want the option of a viable third choice, you need to vote Democrat in the meantime.

MystikIncarnate ,

Iā€™m a fan of harm reduction. There might still be harm, but itā€™s more limited than it was previously.

Itā€™s not the whole solution and always needs further actions at the end of the day, but itā€™s movement in the right direction.

Far better than just coasting along waiting for things to get worse.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Four people vote for driving off a cliff. Three vote for driving into a wall. Two vote for getting ice cream.

Everybody on the bus dies. You blame the people who voted for ice cream.

ArmokGoB ,

Making a false equivalence between Biden and Trump is hilariously detached from reality, and you will have a really hard time convincing me youā€™re arguing in good faith.

ArmokGoB ,

Iā€™m surprised an instance like this is okay with people showing up and arguing why letting a transphobic fascist take power is actually not as bad as it sounds.

Etterra ,

Thus is the problem with our broken, binary choice system. Ranked voting may not be perfect, but it is exceeding better than the me we have now.

cheesebag ,

Democrats consistently support & pass RCV, while Republicans repeal & ban it. If you want RCV, you need to support Dems in the meantime.

olivebranch ,

I am not against voting, but the metaphor is really wrong and it doesnā€™t communicate how voting changes almost nothing.

The problem is that Hilary supported Trump in pied piper strategy to have an easier person to run against. This means that you are doing exactly what they want you to do and they are protecting Trump because they need him to be the other candidate so you are forced to support ice cream made of genocide.

Democrats are terrorists now, that hold the entire country hostage and demand murder of civilians in Gaza for their financial gain. We donā€™t have democracy either way, we will have genocide, wars and poverty either way. There really isnā€™t that big of a difference, because they support each other so they can win against us, the people. They are the same team, funded by same people, running on same campaigns, running the same narrative of lesser evil vs evil, while actually working together.

Their next move is for democrats to support same policies that republicans do now, and fund even more extreme republicans so that can be their candidate. The strategy clearly works. Whatever you are voting against this elections, you will be forced to vote for the next.

ArmokGoB ,

Voting isnā€™t going to fix that, but it will delay more of the shit we saw from 2016-2020. If you want to overthrow the government and see actual change happen, you can go first.

olivebranch ,

I am not so sure it will delay it. If we get a democrat then they will move the goal post for worse, if we donā€™t we will lose democracy we donā€™t have. During Trump there where some good antigovernment riots due to George Floyd and American army moved out of Afghanistan. During Biden, we got war in Ukraine and increased genocide in Gaza. Altough they both have same goals, there are benefits to having an evil idiot instead of evil smarter person in power.

Either way, you can vote for whoever you want and It wonā€™t really hurt. But it definitely wont help either.

femboycuddles ,

May I ask how Biden is responsible for the war in Ukraine? Also how wonā€™t voting to enable an evil idiot with intelligent people helping him openly planning on becoming a complete authoritarian dictatorship targeting its political opponents from achieving probably exactly that do harm? I hate to do a nazi germany comparison, but while making Hitler reichskanzler, this was the opinion of the center-conservatives that helped put him there. That definetly did cause Harm and the political situation was really quite similar.

PaintedSnail ,

Focusing on the general idea of the last statement of your first paragraph, I completely disagree. I would much rather have a smart evil person in charge over an evil idiot.

A smart evil person will, at the very least, work for their own self-preservation. They can be negotiated with, even reasoned with, because they know that some give and take is required to meet their own goals.

An evil idiot will just break everything and take everyone with them if they donā€™t get what they want simply because they donā€™t understand what it is they are breaking.

Krauerking ,

Yeah the Democrats are driving us to get ice cream, they are driving us to their private casino after promising ice cream and telling us if we spend enough at the black jack table they might send over a waitress to take our order.

Iā€™m tired of them being framed as good and their ideas as beneficial when really most are just enriching for the already wealthy and have forgotten about sacrifice and effort into the greater good of the common people.

So if our choice is between an actual evil asshole and an abuser who just wants people to shut up so they donā€™t have to hear complaints, Iā€™m not exactly blaming people that dislike both options and view harm reduction as just living with the pain.
We have to do and aim for better or no one will be interested in participating anymore.
Iā€™m already tired of spending my life at the casino surrounded by drunks and addicts, and my only escape being getting on the bus driving to the cliff.

If neither side respects people, then I donā€™t think they deserve them.

Soulcreator ,

Why do we always assume the ones who donā€™t vote arenā€™t going to vote to run us off the cliff?

My frustration with the get out and vote push is that there is always this weird assumption that the ones who arenā€™t voting are some how going to magically push things into the ā€œrightā€ direction. What if we are all better off if they donā€™t vote?

nikscha ,

Young people are less likely to vote than old people, and old people are more likely to be conservative. But even if that wasnā€™t the case, more people voting is always better for a society.

KeenFlame ,

Abstaining does not mean ā€œyou are okay with either optionā€ abstaining is a vote for people not having a choice.

Idk if it is same in us, but we have what is called blank voting, which is a vote that could be that. But not voting is a fascist statement.

Quexotic ,

Thatā€™s interesting! What county? How does blank voting work? Iā€™m wondering how Iā€™d do that with my US voting machine. Not that I would, but I wonder.

KeenFlame ,

Sweden, there is a specific paper you take among the options that says blank vote, you can also put in slips with blank votes when there is options to check on a public vote and it will be tallied. When many blank votes are cast, it could basically invalidate any of the other options too meaning we need a new one

Quexotic ,

Thatā€™s wonderful! We donā€™t have that.

Soulcreator ,

Could you clarify how not voting is specifically a fascist statement?

Like what if there arenā€™t any fascists on the ballot? Or why would not voting only be a vote towards fascism rather than towards libertarian, anarchism, moderatism or any other kind of ā€œismā€ out there?

KeenFlame ,

Because you wish people had no say in how they are ruled

TechNerdWizard42 ,

The US doesnā€™t have a parliamentary system. It is winner take all. There are no votes of no-confidence. There are no coalition governments. The winner of the electoral college which is NOT popular vote gets full control with no oversight.

If you vote for a party that does not win, you get zero representation, not partial or proportional representation.

So abstaining truly does mean you donā€™t care.

KeenFlame ,

I donā€™t even think itā€™s a democracy

TechNerdWizard42 ,

It most definitely is NOT. Itā€™s a oligarchian theocracy at this point and deserves to crumble.

cobra89 ,

What kills me are the people whose preferred form of government is not currently the most popular form of government somehow think that after a revolution that their preferred form of government will win out. Theyā€™re delusional. In most cases the government gets worse, much worse, before it gets better.

Droechai ,

Thats only if you use experience or look at historial precedent, Im sure this time it will work out.

shimdidly ,

Everyone vote TRUMP before this bus drives off the cliff.

Guntrigger ,

I thought this was satire. A quick scan of your profile reveals an actual defender of Trump, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan and Baltimore Bridge conspiracy theorist in the wild. Interesting.

shimdidly ,

You should defend them too. Join us.

Krauerking ,

Yeah this is still the problem of getting people to panic, a lot of people are idiots and think the liar that makes them feel good is gonna be the right choice for solving the crises instead of well intentioned professionals.

Carlo ,

Whole lot of priveleged accelerationists ITT. Good thing most of them were probably never going to bother voting anyhow.

CptEnder ,

Honestly thatā€™s probably me. But not what you think. In the process for long-term self sponsor visa to France rn. I made the decision in July 2022. Lived there a while to test it and now am in process to make perm. Iā€™ll still vote absentee if possible.

I donā€™t really see any reason to be here anymore though. The experiment has failed and I no longer have any desire to try to protect it like generations of my family who moved here for equality of life and better economic opportunities. So, like them Iā€™m moving, to a place that has the baseline of treating 52% of its population as humans and opportunities for my profession. Thereā€™s plenty wrong there too, but the way I look at it, might as well have good wine while watching everything burn.

Carlo ,

Good luck in France! Iā€™m still hoping we can turn things around, but I certainly wonā€™t judge you for leaving.

anticurrent ,

All I see is panic. supposedly If the majority of women were pro-abortion, you wouldnā€™t have to worry about Trump and republicans winning the next elections. women alone would flip the red states. but apparently not all women agree with abortion.

spujb OP ,

the majority of US women are pro-choice

anticurrent ,

Maybe they donā€™t vote accordingly!

meliaesc ,

I certainly do. My addressā€™s official polling place is a church, which means that my religious mother does not feeling comfortable voting on the topic even though she agrees.

TheLowestStone ,
@TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

The pole linked above shows that 55% of women are pro-choice. Thatā€™s not nearly enough of a majority to ā€œflip the red statesā€ especially since the majority of the 55% are more likely to live in blue states already.

Syrc ,

14% of liberals arenā€™t pro-choice

ā€¦excuse me?

spujb OP ,

yep. human worldviews are remarkably diverse and often donā€™t rigidly conform to our expectations. browsing through gallup data is a good reminder every once in a while.

Syrc ,

Yes butā€¦ isnā€™t the whole point of liberalism ā€œpersonal liberty above everything, keep regulations to the extreme minimumā€? To me that feels like a vegan that randomly decides eating one type of meat is ok.

Re-reading the survey, if the options were only Conservative, Moderate and Liberal I can understand why some leftwing religious people would choose that, but it still feels weird to me.

Like, in my mind the opposite of Conservative is Progressive, not Liberal. Thatā€™s the opposite of Authoritarian.

tb_ ,
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

Isnā€™t Christianity about treating your neighbours well, and about how God loves everyone?

Droechai ,

Not if you read the bible

tb_ ,
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

I guess. Mainly wanted to highlight that ā€œclaimed ideologyā€ isnā€™t the same as ā€œactual ideologyā€.

Syrc ,

Kinda? The thing is that Christianity is a 2000+ year old ā€œideologyā€ that isnā€™t even consistent with itself, so itā€™s a given that their followers pick and choose which parts they want to adhere to.

I expected more coherence from a philosophy thatā€™s barely 400 years old but apparently thatā€™s still too much I guess.

whoreticulture ,

The most convincing argument Iā€™ve heard for voting third party instead of for Genocide Joe is that liberals were more politically engaged and had more of an activist mentality under Trump.

Also, Iā€™ve given consideration to the idea that ā€œvote blue no matter whoā€ types would likely vote for a more leftist Democrat than the ones currently being offered. In a long term strategy, if leftists refuse to vote for Democratic candidates who are too far right, then the Democrats would have to either try to appeal to the Trump demographic (which they do unfortunately do), or appeal to the leftist demographic until they get the leftist votes back.

spujb OP ,

just to clarify, do you subscribe to that first argument? itā€™s kind of a crazy one lol

like Americans who subscribe to pacifist beliefs were a lot more mobilized during the Vietnam War. that doesnā€™t especially mean the Vietnam War was good for world peace. šŸ¤Ø

whoreticulture ,

Biden is doing all the things that liberals would protest Trump for.

cheesebag ,

Bullshit.

whoreticulture ,

This whole article is about how heā€™s doing the bare minimum, not meeting his promises, and refusing to use his presidential powers to do things like declare a federal climate emergency

Syrc ,

In a long term strategy, if leftists refuse to vote for Democratic candidates who are too far right, then the Democrats would have to either try to appeal to the Trump demographic (which they do unfortunately do), or appeal to the leftist demographic until they get the leftist votes back.

You said it yourself. They have two choices and theyā€™re currently doing the worse one. What makes you think theyā€™ll change their mind along the way?

whoreticulture ,

If the Democrats go full Trump eventually they would lose the moderate liberals and a third party could step in. I donā€™t see that as the likelier option.

Something like 10-20% of voters in the primary did protest votes. Itā€™s a huge chunk of people.

And itā€™s also people they currently see as their base, the Democrats are trying to appeal to the conservatives because they believe (correctly) that they can do just about anything and people will continue to vote for them.

Syrc ,

A third party will never realistically step in as long as FPTP is in place. Democrats could absolutely go full Trump and get votes because the Republicans somehow managed to go even more off the deep end.

As I see it, the only way out is to keep voting Democrats and try readjusting the Overton Window, so that eventually if Republicans keep losing theyā€™ll be the ones forced to appeal more to leftwing voters. And at that point, when their opponent isnā€™t a cartoonish ghoul, Democrats will actually have to try as well.

whoreticulture ,

If they keep moving right, eventually they WILL lose Democrats. I donā€™t really imagine mainstream Democrats suddenly changing their views on abortion, for example. So there will have to be a party that caters towards that HUGE demographic, whether itā€™s the Dems or another party that fills in.

I donā€™t see how affirming the actions of the current administration does anything but to entrench Dems in their belief that they can get away with anything and liberals would still vote them in. It just emboldens them to be more conservative.

Syrc ,

Iā€™m assuming the average leftwing person is pro-free healthcare. Neither Biden nor Trump are. Did Jill Stein get a huge amount of voters for being the only candidate to support it in 2016? She barely got 1%.

Thatā€™s not how it works. Itā€™s just going to shift the Overton Window even more.

whoreticulture ,

Itā€™s not 2016 anymore. Check out the primary results, 10-20% of people did not vote for Biden as part of a deliberate movement.

Syrc ,

Yes, because voting someone else in the primary doesnā€™t have the risk of electing a literal dictator.

Iā€™d actually say 20% is quite low for a situation like that, it means 80% of democrats actually like Biden and thatā€™s baffling to me. Compare that to 2020 when he got 51% in primaries and he actually gained consensus.

whoreticulture ,

The Republican voters are still very much obsessed with Trump. We deserve a candidate that people actually want to support.

Syrc ,

Yes, we do. But voting third party and potentially handing over a second term to Trump isnā€™t going to achieve that. Itā€™s just going to bring on 4 years of hell for minorities and encourage Democrats to appeal to Trump voters even more (especially now that, hopefully, Trump wonā€™t be able to be elected a third time).

whoreticulture ,

Right, so youā€™re willing to throw Palestinians under the bus. The strategic action I am talking about is refusing to vote for candidates who will fund the genocide.

Minorities are going through hell under Biden! He is not an ally. I donā€™t see how Democrats would try to appeal to Trump voters if they can demonstrably see that a HUGE chunk of voters need a more left candidate. A vote for Biden is a vote for no change whatsoever. It gives Biden and the Democratic party no incentive to change.

Syrc ,

Again, Palestinians will suffer in any case. A third party miraculously getting 20% of the voters will mean either of the genocide-supporting candidates still gets elected, and that means 4 more years of genocide will happen anyway.

And again, minorities are going through hell because of Trump-elected officials. The hope is that two consecutive Democrat terms will make the situation better, while if Trump wins that basically assures the next 4 years will be even worse than now, and that the following 4 will still have Trump-elected officials making it hard for whoever gets elected to get anything done.

It doesnā€™t matter how huge the chunk of voters that need a more left-leaning candidate is as long as the ones voting Republican are bigger. Itā€™ll always make more sense to appeal to the latter.

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