odelik ,

So do you like Biden for this, since you've been blindly critical of Biden for "supporting genocide"? Since this is Biden escalating repercussions to Israel, this is a good thing in your eyes, right?

Or are you posting this because Israel is now being crticial of Biden and any critical message about Biden is OK with you?

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

Don't be fooled.

U.S. still sending some weapons to Israel despite holding up bomb shipment over Rafah assault plans

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-stand-alone-netanyahu-biden-rafah-weapons-hamas-rcna151608

Zaktor ,

other Israelis worry their leaders are losing the vital war for global support.

The time to worry about that was a while back, before other western countries talked about arms restrictions and their primary supporter and supplier publicly told them no. They were riding the high of Biden sticking with them as other sentiment turned rather than recognizing they were pushing that relationship to the breaking point.

Drusas ,

When the far right lashes out at you, you know you're doing something right.

Plastic_Ramses ,

So whats it called when the far left and the far are lashing out?

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Horseshoe theory. The extremes can align in support for authoritarianism due to drive for protective social legislation. Hence the saying, “fascism arrives as your friend.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

It doesn’t apply to this situation however. The right in the US is in the greatest percentage of support for Israel, at 58%.

https://zeteo.com/p/gaza-israel-genocide-poll-ceasefire-us-voters

Strawberry ,

Did you just unironically bring up horseshoe theory?

@lemmy.world

Oh. You did.

disguy_ovahea ,

Do you disagree with it? I’ve read a good deal of supporting evidence of it being leveraged to create totalitarian dictatorships in the past. It’s not how the far left and right always stand. With enough fear of the opposing side, coupled with blind trust in government, they can align in authoritarianism.

Strawberry , (edited )

Yes, I disagree with it as any rational and honest person would when looking at the actions, goals, and motivations of the left, center, and right. It's nonsense touted only by the ill-informed and political hacks who only wish to perserve the status quo and legitimize the bigotry of the far right. Even the Wikipedia article you linked is most full of information about how it is not supported by evidence or the majority of experts

disguy_ovahea ,

Well, of course I agree that doesn’t apply to the current state of the far left and far right in the US. The far left skews socially libertarian and the far right authoritarian. I understand its application is typically when forming fascist or totalitarian dictatorships. The left will be coerced through fear to push for authoritarian policies in order to protect themselves from the far right. Then that same legislative power later gets wielded against them creating fascism.

That’s also why it’s important that the left stay away from overt censorship legislation. That’s the start of the slippery slope.

Cowbee ,

Horseshoe theory is utter nonsense and devoid of any actual analysis, lol.

disguy_ovahea ,

I learned about it in a Poli-Sci class decades ago. I’m open to counterpoint. Do you have any?

Cowbee ,

It's generally anticommunist propaganda, equating Communists and Anarchists with fascists, as a way to make the liberal status quo seem "rational." In actuality, there is nothing similar between the far left and the far right. Additionally, the claim that violence is common on the far left and far right when compared to already common violence of liberalism is additionally used to paint leftist structures in a negative light.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Communism is an economic system, which doesn’t define social legislation. A social system can go from libertarian, which is full freedom from government legislation, to authoritarian, which is highly legislated social behavior. That is independent of the system of economy, which in the US is defined by more or fewer social programs, or increased or decreased taxation.

Anarchists are socially libertarian by definition. They support full civil liberty, devoid of social legislation.

I understand horseshoe theory as increased social legislation, usually beginning as a way of limiting or censoring “the opposition,” until a new leader takes office and leverages it against their opposition.

Cowbee ,

That isn't really true, nor accurate.

Communism, chiefly, is a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society. A world republic where from each's ability, each's needs are satisfied. You cannot separate that from the concept of government.

"Authoritarian" and "Libertarian" are vibes-based labels. Capitalism is inherently a system where the majority do not hold power, yet by your definition it could be "libertarian" or "authoritarian."

Horseshoe theory again is used purely to equate the left with the far-right and uphold the liberal status quo as a "sensible meeting point" and legitimize the violent system.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

I’m not familiar with the term vibes-based regarding social legislation. An example of social legislation in a communist nation would be law against homosexuality in Russia. One is independent of the other. Capitalism is also a system of economy, devoid of social legislation inference.

Are you familial with the Nolan Chart? It displays economic legislation on the X axis and social legislation on the Y axis, defining their clear independence. I find it to be helpful in seeing the difference in restrictions to social freedom independent of economic support (or lack thereof).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart

Eldritch ,
@Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

While I am loathe to defend Marxist leninist like cowbee. I think it is important to point out that Russia most certainly is not now communist. Nor has it ever been. And that is the trick with Marxist leninists and their communists parties. Their governments have never been communist. They make lofty arguments about the benefits of communism. But have never once managed to actually transition or move towards transition in a reasonable fashion.

It's the reason that to a 1. Nearly every person you meet who has Marxist leninist aspirations. Can almost always be described as accelerationist. They know full well it is at best a lateral transition. And not a transition to an actually better government. So the only way they can achieve motivating people to switch. Is to make the other worse. Capitalists do the same. They're both children. And neither should be misconstrued with actual small c communists.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

That’s fair. There’s no definition for civil rights or social restrictions in a form of economy, so I just chose Russia as an example.

Eldritch , (edited )
@Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

And you are absolutely right to choose Russia as an example. While they are not and have never been communist. They were the very model of a Marxist leninist government. And Putin is a direct spin-off of their kgb. Each and every one of the modern Russian oligarchs has direct ties back to the party's elite. So you absolutely can trace it all back to Marxist leninism.

My only real objection was the name communism getting caught up in the middle of it far too much than it ever deserved. Many of us in the west really have no idea what it is or what it means. And ML gleefully misuse it only confusing the situation more.

But your criticism of Russia is very valid.

disguy_ovahea ,

I guess I also could have referenced oppressive civil rights issues in Cuba as a more accurate example of communism existing with authoritarianism.

Eldritch ,
@Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

They're also ML. Very much having an overreaching state and currency. Though the argument could be made that they are the best behaved of all ml examples. Largely because of their isolation and general lack of resources. They haven't sought massive expansion or been the subject of outside interests.

Largely being left to themselves and their own devices. They kind of stagnated in a bubble. They do have significant cultural and social oppression. A lot of external media is not allowed in. Although that's not all on cuba. There's no money in it for capitalists. So they make no effort. Even China will allow Western media in within reason.

Cowbee ,

None of that has anything to do with horseshoe theory, though, which is the idea that the far left and far right are similar. Homosexuality was decriminalized under Lenin, who was further left than Stalin, who recriminalized it. Your example goes against the original claim.

disguy_ovahea ,

You should read more about the difference between economic and social legislation. I used that example to illustrate the difference between the two, and the point seems to be lost on you.

Cowbee ,

I understand the difference. I fail to see how it proves Horseshoe Theory.

Eldritch ,
@Eldritch@lemmy.world avatar

It's anti-communist propaganda in as much as Marxist leninists pretend to be communist without being communist themselves. Giving communist and anarchist a bad name because ML are authoritarian like the fascist.

There is massive similarly between the ML related governments that exist and fascistic governments. The fascists perpetrate oppression and violence for their own sake in the name of capitalists and shareholders. Where ML for their own sake perpetrate oppression and violence against the people in the name of the people. Which somehow manages to be less self consistent than even the fascists.

Assessed as a whole there's really nothing to recommend ml over many Fascist governments. Too much Freedom's lost with too little in return.

Drusas ,

It probably means you're an asshole who nobody likes.

Dreizehn ,
@Dreizehn@kbin.social avatar

Israel is not part of the Free World, but they are part of Apartheid and every country with lunatic religious nutters running it straight into the ground.

athos77 ,

.Israel said it was carrying out "a precise counterterrorism operation to eliminate Hamas terrorists and infrastructure" in the area.

A precise operation meaning that you're just going to level the entire place and everyone in it? "Kill them all and let God sort them out"? Fuck your genocide.

some_guy ,

Psychopath.

Delusional ,

Israel "Why won't you just let us murder all these men, women, and children?"

SkyezOpen ,

Please stop using anti-israel language. Instead of "men," say "hamas fighters." Instead of "women and children," say "hamas fighters."

/s in case it wasn't obvious

Bonesince1997 ,

Lash out at yourselves for not being able to support your own country/murderous desires.

psvrh ,
@psvrh@lemmy.ca avatar

1939: Germany's far right lashes out at Allies. Says invasion of Poland will happen.

Rapidcreek , (edited )

Said it before..,Pride goeth before the fall.

Edit: Or..

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need.

Bibi is sending Isreal into a pariah state. All to satisfy his right wing and keep him out of jail.

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:


Parliamentarian Dan Illouz, a lawmaker from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's own Likud party, said the U.S. leader's action, "not only jeopardizes Israel but the entire free world."

Israel's President Isaac Herzog, considered a more moderate politician, who is not a member of Netanyahu's far-right coalition government, appeared to chastise his more extreme colleagues on Thursday.

"Even when there are disagreements and moments of disappointment between friends and allies, there is a way to clarify the disputes and it is beholden upon all of us to avoid baseless, irresponsible and insulting statements and tweets that harm the national security and the interests of the State of Israel," Herzog added.

Speaking Wednesday to CNN, Mr. Biden said it would be "just wrong" if U.S.-supplied weapons were used in attacks that led to mass civilian deaths in a full-scale Rafah ground offensive.

The IDF ordered people in the eastern part of the city to leave this week, sparking a desperate exodus of thousands — many of whom had already been forced to flee from other locations multiple times.

IDF tanks rolled in to take control of the Gaza side of Rafah's crucial border crossing with Egypt on Tuesday, soon after the evacuation order was issued, and Israel said it was carrying out "a precise counterterrorism operation to eliminate Hamas terrorists and infrastructure" in the area.


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